“There’s power in understanding yourself in business” with Paula Dixon
Episode 1 of Do your thing hosted by Fliss Lee: with guest Paula Louise Dixon
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What if understanding yourself better could change the way you run your business?
In this episode of Do your thing, I’m joined by Paula Louise Dixon, coaching and business psychologist and founder of Hazon Consulting.
Paula believes there’s real power in understanding yourself in business. We talk about why self-awareness matters when you’re a freelancer or business owner, how understanding your personal values can help you make better business decisions, and why knowing how you respond to stress can help you work in a way that suits you.
We also get into the difference between personal and brand values, the expectations that can get in the way of doing things your own way, and why having a community of people around you can make such a difference when you’re running a business.
What you’ll learn in this episode
Why understanding yourself can help you make better decisions in your business
How personal and brand values can guide the way you work
How understanding your own stress, energy and needs can help you work in a way that suits you
Listen to the episode
Find it on your chosen podcast player here.
About Paula Louise Dixon
Paula is a coaching and business psychologist and founder of Hazon Consulting, where she helps individuals, teams and organisations optimise their potential through psychology-informed coaching and development.
Her work focuses on helping people understand themselves better, align with their values and build healthier, more fulfilling careers and businesses.
Connect with, and follow Paula
You can find Paula, Hazon Consulting, and ThinkND. Connect with her on LinkedIn.
Mentioned in this episode
The Kubler-Ross stress curve
Paula explains how we all have different optimum levels of stress. A certain amount of pressure can help us perform, but when we go beyond that point, our performance starts to drop and we risk becoming depleted or burnt out.
Understanding where you sit on the curve can help you recognise how much stress works for you – and when you need to step back and recharge.
Image: Mindwell
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Want to be a guest?
Got a story or experience that could help other founders, freelancers or creative folk do things their own way?You can pitch to be a guest on Do your thing here.
Chapters
00:00 – Meet Paula Louise Dixon
06:03 – Starting Hazon Consulting and finding her own way
09:29 – What business psychology and coaching can help with
12:21 – Why understanding your values is so powerful
17:12 – Self-awareness, stress and running a business
19:35 – Understanding your own stress curve
23:13 – You can't be in “eternal spring”
26:35 – Personal values and business values
32:15 – What's the difference between personal and brand values?
35:55 – When your identity becomes tangled up with your business
40:11 – Spotting values clashes with potential clients
43:40 – A practical exercise for finding your personal values
49:41 – Bringing lots of different things under one brand
54:25 – What gets in the way of doing things your way?
Transcript
Fliss (00:02)
I am so chuffed to have my lovely friend Paula with us for this episode. ⁓ Paula, hello. Please, for those of the listeners who do not know you, ⁓ tell us a bit about yourself,
Paula Louise Dixon (00:18)
thanks, Felice. Well, first of all, I am so delighted. I've been really looking forward to this conversation today. So my name is Paula Louise Dixon. I am a coaching and business psychologist and founder of Hazon Consulting. So what does that mean? Essentially, I like to describe myself as a people optimizer. So it's about using psychology, practically helping people create psychological toolkits really that empower them in the workplace as individuals, teams, organizations.
I'm really kind of having a bit of an evidence base to what I do. So there's really kind of psychological insights, but making them digestible and accessible.
Fliss (00:54)
When I first met Paula, she introduced herself as a business psychologist and I was like, oh my god, she's so intelligent. This lady, I felt really intimidated but after a couple of minutes we hit it off and we had such amazing conversations because I think there's a bit of a like a cross, not a crossover but a link between psychology and brand. It's all about people and understanding people, isn't it?
Paula Louise Dixon (01:00)
Thank you!
yes.
Fliss (01:21)
So we have some amazing conversations. But Paula, weren't you always a business psychologist and coach?
Paula Louise Dixon (01:31)
Absolutely
it's an interesting one. So what you will probably find with most psychologists is some of us tend to go, well, not me, but a lot of people tend to go in a very straightforward linear route. So it's often A-level psychology, undergrad psychology. And if you go into kind of things like clinical psychology, it's a PhD afterwards. I knew that route wasn't for me. So I described myself as like a high-sensing, high-feeling person.
somebody who kind of really invests and can really sense and feel other people's emotions, that kind of thing. So I recognized after a little bit of work experience that maybe being in that space in a bit more of a medical environment might not be the best fit for me. So it was kind of what you do with that. So I was thinking about all the different areas of psychology and I sort of went into working with young people. So to begin with, it was working with young people at risk of exclusion.
and a lot of neurodivergent young people. So was a real kind of interesting space to be in. And then from that, I went into teaching. So I specialized in mainstream teaching for a while, but it was always with a view to kind of leaning into the educational psychology piece. So towards the end of that career, it was working as a behavioral support teacher. So I kind of sat over three primary schools, but I worked with the teachers, the parents, the support organizations, the educational psychologist. So there's a lot of kind of...
Multifaceted work, lots of collaboration, but ultimately it was about helping those young people and their families. When it got to the point of looking at doing the PhD, it was a really interesting one. I kind of reflected for some time. A lot of the young people that I was coming across felt quite, they were really struggling in a system that wasn't really meant for them. And it was hard to be in that space. I found it really difficult. So it was at that point,
a very serendipitous moment. My partner at the time, his brother, had a background in psychology as well and looked at recruitment and selection. So I was literally there going, am I going to do this PhD or how do I feel? And I was having second thoughts about it. And he said, ⁓ have you thought about occupational psychology? And I was like, well, you know, this is something that didn't really know much about. And he created an opportunity for me in his recruitment organization.
so that I could go in there and do recruitment and selection. So to do occupational psychology, they expect that you've got some work experience, you know, you've kind of worked in business, you understand what it's like. So recruitment can be a really useful pathway into that space. So what I essentially did was worked in recruitment and selection for a while, did the masters alongside it, and really realised that was the area for me, because actually what the big difference there was, you were working with adults who were kind of well.
You know, they were happy. There wasn't that level of challenge around them. And actually it moved a lot from problem solving in terms of people that were really, really struggling to empowering people. was about working with people who were already doing pretty well, but finding opportunities to really enable them to play to their strengths, to be at their best. And for me, that was, it was just amazing. It was like a light bulb moment where I realized this is me at my best. And I would say that kind of consultancy part of working in recruitment.
Fliss (04:42)
Hmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (04:51)
comes in really useful as a founder and as a psychologist now, because if you speak to lots of psychologists, they're amazing people who know a lot, but they're not very good at talking about their business and that kind of business side of things. So actually for me, that gave me a really strong foundation. I mean, obviously in being recruitment, you've got to put yourself out there and it might not be my natural, you know, I describe myself as an ambivert, so sometimes being in that space.
you know, I really had to learn that skill of putting myself out there. So that really helped me in my consultancy. But after I graduated, it was kind of like, what do you do next? Because a lot of the opportunities in business psychology are actually down south and living in Leeds, we weren't going to relocate. So actually, I decided to go it alone and forge some relationships with some experienced psychologists, very sort of fortuitous again through LinkedIn. But one
became almost a business partner, and another individual who's the chief assessor for the British Psychological Society. And they were like, we think you can do it. So I was like, right, I'm going to create a business. And the rest, as they say, is history.
Fliss (06:03)
⁓ How, like, how did you find doing your own thing? Did you take it, did it take a while to find your kind of feet and figure out who you wanted to work with and how you wanted to work with people, or were you kind of clear from the outset?
Paula Louise Dixon (06:21)
Good question. ⁓ What I recognized straight away is I built lots of positive relationships in the recruitment space. And there were a number of individuals who always kind of recognized what I was doing. And I talked to them about the bigger picture of bringing in the psychology rather than just the recruitment selection. And they were kind of like the first people who were like, when you move into that space, I'd love to be coached with you or come back to me or keep in touch. there were a few people in that space.
And I think the skills that I gained from recruitment in terms of like connecting with people and reaching out to people, I was very sort of prolific in putting myself out there and saying to people, look, I'm doing this now, I'm doing the development side of things, I'm doing coaching, that kind of thing. Would you be interested in sort of exploring that? And thankfully, a lot of people said, yes, so I specialised in the charity sector.
And for me, that's always been a really natural alignment. I've been a trustee for mind before, but I suppose that mirrors my values. And I felt like I could support the sector because it doesn't get a lot of resourcing. If you think about private and public sector, you know, the charity sector probably gets the least. So I use that kind of recruitment and then expanded what I did. So I reached out to a lot of the charity people that I'd worked with before and told them about.
You know, the team development and things like that. And they were actually quite receptive to it. So that's always been a very natural space for me. You know, I coach a lot of charity CEOs and leadership teams. And for me, I kind of see that as a way of giving back in a way that mirrors my values, even though I'm not directly working in the charity, I'm supporting the people that do that. So I was very lucky in that regard. And I think the other side of it is founders. So much like, you know, I met you through networking and through the
broader Northern affinity and being out with people. I've definitely supported other founders either directly through coaching or reciprocal relationships. And I'm very passionate about that side of things too, because I think it can be a lonely journey when you're an independent founder and having that you're nodding. Absolutely. Isn't it? And, you know, having some of that psychological toolkit.
Fliss (08:29)
Yes.
Paula Louise Dixon (08:32)
giving people some of those resources themselves to help them navigate that and being understood, I think, by people who kind of get your journey. So they're two particular areas, but I would, you know, I do work across public, private and not for profit. I do have a bit of a passion in those areas alongside neurodiversity as well.
Fliss (08:38)
Yeah.
Yeah, Fingers in many pies, I feel. That's maybe not quite the right term for you, but you love to, you've got lots going on. Yeah.
Paula Louise Dixon (08:54)
I do. Yeah. Well, it fits with
my personal value of being adventurous. know, that's for me, that's how that sits with that. So I think I've been a nightmare client for anyone that's ever done marketing because they're like, who is your niche area? And I'm like, well.
I optimize people potential so it could be anyone. So I do think that's always the challenge. And I do see myself as a bit of a magpie in that sense of, you know, collecting different ways of working and different people, that kind of thing.
Fliss (09:29)
Yeah, so you just said ⁓ about optimizing people potential. So how do you help your clients, your coachees? What do you do for them, essentially? Big question.
Paula Louise Dixon (09:33)
Yes.
Hmm. Well,
yeah, it's a massive question, isn't it? I mean, if we think about some of the agendas that might bring people into coaching, you can have challenges. So I work with a lot of senior leaders who maybe have been promoted or managing, you know, like modern day challenges of managing a workforce, but at the same time, having tasks to do and doing less, doing more with less that kind of thing. So there's often that side of it.
Fliss (09:48)
Mm.
Paula Louise Dixon (10:12)
That's the practical. How do we make that work? How do you, I don't know, give yourself space in a busy diary? How do you look after yourself? So there's a lot of practical sides to it. I think for me, the way that I like to look at it, and I describe myself as an integrative practitioner is we can do all the practical stuff, but this is where the evidence base comes into it. So I would work with individuals and leaders to look at habits, to look at energy.
⁓ to look at strengths. There's some real kind of practical evidence-based things that we bring into it. ⁓ I particularly enjoy working with leaders looking at their self-identity. So this is kind of recognising, you know, if people are struggling with imposter phenomenon, if people want to feel more confident, if people want to really step into their leadership role.
It's kind of what does that look like? And often what that can involve is you can have a great conversation in coaching, but sometimes bringing in some of these kind of models and insights and ideas and particularly around values as well. What's important to me enables people to go that little bit deeper and try to find that sense of alignment between ultimately what feels right for them and how they're showing up on a day-to-day basis.
So for me, it's about creating that kind of really psychologically safe space because, these are individuals, it's CEOs of organizations and senior leaders, they often can't admit some of the worries and the concerns, even founders as well. You know, you have to present that persona, don't you? Show up looking like you know what you're doing. But what I see, winging it all the way, not all the way.
Fliss (11:50)
Winging it. ⁓
Paula Louise Dixon (11:54)
But what I like
to do is kind of create that space. A lot of my coaches like to use that space where they can kind of show up as they are. And I will help, I'll hold the space while they maybe process some of their thinking. But sometimes it's about them really making some choices about how they want to show up in the world. And there's a lovely, you know, one of the favourite ways I have of describing it, because we talked already about values, is that idea that your values are a bit like a stick of rock. If we chopped you through the middle.
Fliss (12:21)
Hmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (12:22)
your values would kind of be the lettering that goes around it. And I love that metaphor and that way of looking at it. So for me, there's a lot about helping people on earth what that looks like for them and then finding real ways at work and beyond to live a life that's in service of those values because straight into the neuroscience now. In our...
Emotional brain, you know, we've got that kind of rational logical bit and we've got the emotional brain to simplify it for everybody. Our values are held. The suggestion is that our values are held in our kind of emotional brain. And that is the idea with that is that that's below the level of language. So in other words, sometimes we might not, you if you said to somebody, what's your values? And they might go, ⁓ I don't know.
But if you ask them to do something that went against their values, they might have quite an emotional response to that. They might be like, hang on a minute, I'm not doing that. And the idea is that because of the part of our brain that processes this stuff, it's a very felt sense. It's helping people through coaching sometimes put the language to what those feelings are. We bring it up to a level of, you where we can talk about it and think about it.
And then help people find the behaviors that help them make choices as leaders, as founders on a day-to-day basis that makes you feel motivated and in alignment. Because the other part of it, as we know with values, if we know what they are and we can behave in accordance with them, we're going to feel really engaged. You know, the world will feel a good place. So there's a real kind of neuroscience that sits behind. It's not like downloading all these facts on people. We would always kind of, you know, contract on what they want to know. But.
At the same time, think sometimes people understanding where these things come from can really help empower people. like to call it a psychological toolkit because you're taking these little bits and you're like, that's why that makes sense. And that's why I feel like that. And actually this is what I can do with it as a leader, as a founder in my day to day life.
Fliss (14:11)
Yeah.
I find that so interesting because if I think about any instances where I've ⁓ had to act in accordance with my own values or somebody's done it against my own values, I've felt like an anxiety or a stress because it hasn't been right for me. But I'm, you introduced me to the world of coaching, I feel.
Paula Louise Dixon (14:35)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Fliss (14:51)
I
Paula Louise Dixon (14:51)
Thank you.
Fliss (14:52)
think I learnt my coaching skills as a manager but I think you introduced me to the power of coaching for myself. I always say that if I had had coaching when I was employed and been able to have that space to understand myself and what I wanted, I would have probably stepped away from design a lot sooner than I did because actually I would have had the space to understand what I liked about it and what my skills were and all that sort of thing.
Paula Louise Dixon (14:59)
⁓ thank you.
Mmm.
Right, okay.
Mm-hmm.
Fliss (15:20)
And obviously
Paula Louise Dixon (15:20)
Yeah.
Fliss (15:20)
when I went self-employed and we met and I kind of experienced coaching for myself. ⁓ And I'm a curious person. I love to get to know how I work. think it's why I ended up becoming a coach because I find that fascinating. ⁓ But learning about myself and how I work and what that feeling means has really massively changed things for me.
Paula Louise Dixon (15:29)
Mm.
Yep.
Fliss (15:47)
It's so important, isn't it, to kind of understand these things, to be able to... I'm gonna use a word which I'm surprised I'm using here, perform in the world of work, but I think you know what I mean in that respect.
Paula Louise Dixon (15:51)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah, but it's authentic.
Yeah, it's kind of, it's how you're showing up, isn't it? Because we do, we do have to kind of change our behaviour. It's about being in a position and look, and thank you so much for kind of saying that was such a lovely way that you described. I'm quite proud to have, you know, maybe introduced you to personal coaching in that way. But if we're given those tools, we're in a position ultimately to make different choices. And I do think, you know, I wonder what you think about this, but
I think it should be on the school curriculum. You know, if young people understood that, you know, the way that our brain works, we have an emotional brain, a rational brain, and sometimes they feel like they're having a conversation and sometimes they actually feel like they're having an argument and that's normal. How powerful is that? You know, I've brought my son up absolutely with those principles in mind because I want him to be able to navigate. Just like you said, if you'd have known in work, I've thought as a child, if you know that this is normal,
Fliss (16:30)
⁓ yes.
Paula Louise Dixon (16:57)
And we know there's so many rates of poor engagement in the workplace or mental health burnout and stress. Just giving people some of these tools to help manage those sides of it, but also to learn about themselves through coaching. It's so powerful, isn't it?
Fliss (17:12)
It's really powerful. And especially if you're, as you know, being a business owner, when you're a business owner, it's like self development on steroids, isn't it? It's just like, it really is. But knowing how you are and kind of what affects how you feel and how to look after yourself in stressful times is so important. ⁓
Paula Louise Dixon (17:24)
Yeah! It sure is!
Yeah.
Fliss (17:42)
Yeah, I find it so fascinating. That's why I love speaking to you.
Paula Louise Dixon (17:47)
100%.
good. Well, just to your point as well, know, so with the neurodiversity coaching that I do, I work with lots of adults who've burnt out and particularly women who've ended up with an adult diagnosis often in the 40s, maybe around perimenopause where people have masked and managed for so long and then, you know, hormones change and the wheels fall off. There is power in recognising, you know, if we grow up talking about our emotions, and I do think things are getting better, but if we understand ourselves,
you can prevent some of that kind of retrospective burnout because we know that something's changed or we know how we normally feel and this is something that we look at. And I think for founders, those kind of values or strengths that push people to be founders are often, you know, high levels of motivation. often, we drive ourselves hard, don't we? So it becomes even more important, I think, in a single solo position that you are surrounded by people who, you know, if you can't spot that for yourself.
that you've got people who know you well enough to kind of say, are you all right? You know, because I can see a difference in you. And I think that's really important. Doesn't have to be having your own exec coach, although I would absolutely advocate for that. But having people who understand those principles and are able to kind of ask you questions, as we would do with each other, you know, that's really important as well.
Fliss (19:07)
really interesting yeah business pals who know you well and you and you supported me a few years ago in helping me to sort of how do I put this understand my stress and so obviously the reason why we're here today is because I'm trying to relearn how to build my business my way and that is the whole reason why I started in the first place but over my whole career
Paula Louise Dixon (19:23)
Yeah.
Fliss (19:35)
I have operated at quite a high level of stress and the first thing I found really interesting when we did a bit of work was you introduced me to the stress curve and for anyone who does not know about stress curve, probably a lot of people, we all operate at a different place don't we on the stress curve and what you said to me is I kind of am quite high so I'm quite high functioning like I do really well under high pressure.
Paula Louise Dixon (19:45)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Fliss (20:03)
But what was causing a lot of my burnout and high stress levels was it's very close to, correct me if I'm wrong, peaking into, ⁓ I don't know if it was chronic stress, dangerous, how would you term it? Yeah.
Paula Louise Dixon (20:17)
It's like the danger zone, isn't it? And you're absolutely right. So
that the model is called the Kubler-Ross. So if you're ever going to have a Google and look up, so it's this idea that we go into, as you said, you we have that idea of we all have different levels of optimum stress in psychology. Stress is not just a bad thing. A stressor is something that we apply to either a person or a situation that can improve our performance. So often when you look, there's a graph between
more stress and high performance. It's just when it goes, you know, and that's what the Kubler-Ross curve is that beyond a certain point, adding more stress means we've gone, we've peaked and we fall off a cliff. We kind of go into a space where we're starting to get burnt out. And absolutely that idea of recognizing, you know, if we say to each other, generally stress is a bad thing and we kind of go, I'm stressed, you're stressed, you know, and it is a very negative thing. Using a tool like that enables us to kind of go,
Fliss (20:53)
Hmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (21:14)
Well, where do you know what is right for me because you're unique and I'm different to you. And we're all, you know, to use a neurodiverse, we're all different from each other. And sometimes recognizing actually, I do like to operate at that high level of stress and have lots going on. But actually that has an impact that I can't stay there all the time. And, you know, I'm coaching somebody at the moment that we chatted about this recently within the last few weeks.
and they were looking at it just through a work lens. And I sort of gave the example for me that I like to work and have lots on at work, but actually if I do, I can't have a busy weekend. I can't have busy social and busy work because actually that's going to tip me over the edge on that curve. So for that individual, they were kind of recognising, I'd never looked at what I'm doing outside of work. And so it took them to an even bigger perspective where they were kind of like, wonder I feel exhausted because I'm working at the top of that curve.
Fliss (21:54)
Yes.
Paula Louise Dixon (22:13)
across all different aspects of my life.
Fliss (22:17)
I think in that conversation you introduced me to the fact that I am a sociable person in work. I think I was a bit of an introvert, extrovert. So I love to be around people and I feed off people, but only to a certain point. And so if I've got a lot of socializing in my work week, I need a quiet weekend. And I think that... ⁓
Paula Louise Dixon (22:26)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Fliss (22:42)
That is a really good example of how it would stress me out if I had both. I need to lie down in the darkened room.
Paula Louise Dixon (22:45)
Yeah. Well, you're a
precious, you know, a lovely way to look at it. You're a precious finite resource. It's kind of thinking, there you go. Yeah, you're welcome. So it's that kind of recognition, isn't it? If we're draining that social battery, if you will, through doing lots of different things, we're going to need that recharge as well. And sometimes it's about recognising a lot of people find themselves in that depleted state and then wonder what's happened.
Fliss (22:54)
Thank you.
Noooo
Paula Louise Dixon (23:13)
because we have expectations, I think more broadly, and I think this takes it into the founder space. It's almost like we should be in an eternal spring. Now that we're in autumn, I think that's a useful one because sometimes we can't always be generating. Sometimes we need to reflect and recharge, whether it's over the course of a week or a season. It's about recognizing what those signs are.
Fliss (23:21)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, yeah, understanding yourself is so important. And I don't think you know this, but interestingly, that knowledge of me operating at a high stress point, I now I have a visual timer. And if I want to get something done, maybe I'm procrastinating or it's a boring task. I set the timer for like 20, 25 minutes and I do it because actually I usually get it done because I'm like, I've got to beat the time I've got. And I think that's me operating at that high stress point.
Paula Louise Dixon (23:59)
⁓
Fliss (24:05)
but only for a short burst of time which works perfectly. Yeah. Yeah.
Paula Louise Dixon (24:05)
Yeah. But you're controlling it. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. And the interesting that fits in with, again, thinking about the neurodiversity work, we can work with optimum levels of sort of motivation and dopamine and actually the idea of putting a timer in there. If we're struggling to find that level of motivation, putting a timer that counts down.
creates that anticipation of a dopamine hit when we've done the task. So again, it might be hitting you, you what you need on different levels. You're creating that artificial stress, but it's also a motivation as well because you're to get that dopamine hit by anticipating when those 25 minutes are up.
Fliss (24:45)
I think there's so much value in understanding yourself so that you can work with your stress but also know how to look after yourself, which we all need. You're only going to know that by knowing yourself, I feel.
Paula Louise Dixon (24:57)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's deep work, isn't it? It's about having the space and the resources. And I think that's where, from a coaching perspective, you've got to have that kind of relationship. You know, I think if you felt like you were being coached through a model or going through the motions, that's where, and we've all experienced it, you know, when people are maybe not as intuitive or whatever reason, or when people are nervous. But I think
There's something in the skillset of creating that space where people can go away and do that deep work. Because the thing is, know, with coaching, you often don't know what's going to come out of it. That's the other thing, you know, we might learn something about ourselves that we really didn't know. And I think the other part of coaching and thinking about founders is that positive challenge as well. You know, certainly with some of my coaches, they're not coming to me for a cozy cuddle. They want a bit of positive challenge that's going to make them perform at their best. So.
Fliss (25:59)
Yeah.
Paula Louise Dixon (26:03)
You've really got to create that space where people feel like they can go there, whether it's something that they're struggling with or something that they're trying to understand. But for me, that, you know, I always come back to the psycho education piece of it. Why do we feel like that? Why is that going on? What will be the benefit of learning something about ourselves? So I think all of these are great tools to help us essentially, you know, and hence why I say optimizing people's potential, because if we've got some of this stuff.
we're going to be able to live the life that we want.
Fliss (26:35)
Yeah, and that's the reason why I wanted you on the podcast because it's optimizing people potential. It's each individual. We're not all the same. We're not robots. We're all different. So that's why understanding yourself is important. Now, you've already mentioned your own values and we've done a bit of work with each other on values. ⁓
Paula Louise Dixon (26:44)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes, we did.
Fliss (26:58)
I'd love to chat to you more about values because you, I, we regularly have conversation where you reference your own values. how useful is, has it been to understand your own values through your, through being self-employed?
Paula Louise Dixon (27:06)
Mmm.
Yeah, so important. So the work that we did on the hazon values, mean, for me was just amazing because we got to, I think the thing is, if you look at them like your compass, you know, that's going to guide how you show up and it will happen unconsciously because they're the things that mean something to us. But actually it's even more powerful if you know what those things are. From the perspective of hazon, understanding
you know, how many organisations just have words on all? And for me, there's a real authenticity piece. You everybody wants to be collaborative. Everybody wants to do good work and show that they care, you know. So it's like, how do you differentiate yourself? And I just want to say, like, in terms of ours, thinking about them, we managed to get that thread of adventure. So although I am not haze on, for me, adventure shows up and you really helped me kind of distill this, which I always remember. It's probably the one that I go back to the most.
Fliss (27:44)
Yes.
Paula Louise Dixon (28:09)
is that sense of, you know, being, you said it, you're curious and it is, it's a curiosity about techniques, solutions, ways of being that you can't, you know, I go off and find I'm proactive. pull all these things together and sort of offer them to, I don't force them. It's like an offering if people want to learn about them. And it's not kind of a faddy thing. So adventure in that sense, in a work setting fits with my sense of adventure.
As someone who identifies as neurodivergent, you know, I'm always having a million different ideas and that sense of adventure. It's probably why I, you know, I work for myself, I think ultimately as a founder, because you get that ability to come up with ideas. You know, I've just launched another business with a colleague called Think ND, shameless plug. But for me, that adventure shows up in so many different ways. So for me, it's very satisfying to have that curiosity to learn new things.
and to go out
the world. And I think another one of my personal values is achievement. So it's not necessarily ⁓ having loads of certificates, although I do collect those as well. But it's like a love of learning combined with a sense of showing myself as a professional person. That sense of achievement is kind of, you know, it means something to me to show up and that my coaches know I've not just read a book.
I've not just turned up and said, I'm a coach because it's an unregulated area. know, there's a real sense of, I hope people recognise that my values show up in the kind
knowledge and insight and my way of relating to people that really helps me show up. And I think, you know, they're just small things. In terms of other values, I use those set of values in terms of working out who to engage with. So for me, you know, in coaching,
there's often an element of understanding, know, as we said before, if people say something that goes against your values, you might have quite a visceral reaction without even realizing it. So in terms of who I would work with in a consultancy capacity, have to look for not identical values because I recognize we're all different. But if I was going to collaborate with someone, there would have to be a degree of synergy. And so what I'm looking for is a sense of
harmony or at least, you know, they're compatible with one another rather than it being, we're coming at this from, you know, two very different spaces. So I often lean into my values in moments of challenge, kind of go, you know, what's important to me in this moment right now about how I show up. And so, for example, if it is that idea of achievement and being professional, it's about me kind of going, what does that look like? How does that my behaviour? And I think for me, there's something in that.
I'm going to say I am very collaborative. You know, I always try and work with people in that way. So it's finding those opportunities to work with people in a kind of mutually beneficial way. And that's particularly, you know, thinking about my ⁓ new project. Actually, the individual Kate that I'm partnering with, she came to me through my International Women's Day Pro Bono coaching.
Fliss (31:06)
Yeah.
Paula Louise Dixon (31:29)
we actually engaged in those sessions and it became very apparent by session sort of two, three. There was such a level of kind of opportunity and we got on that well. It was at that point she said, surely we need to be looking at doing something else as well. So I think if you use your values in that way, kind of like influencing how you show up, you can then look to that level of behavior and it can be something that doesn't solve problems for you, but can kind of give you a bit of guidance.
particularly when you're feeling those moments of challenges we all do as a founder, is kind of asking that question. What's important to me right now? What, you know, which value of mine can help me stay in this challenging situation or help me make some decisions about how to handle it?
Fliss (32:15)
Yeah, yeah, think that you've spot on there. I'm interested to see what you think the difference between personal values and brand values are.
Paula Louise Dixon (32:19)
you
I've done some work on this actually, Felice. I think that's really interesting because I've been working with a charity that's gone through a brand redesign and I'm helping with the internal organizational values. I've had a lot of time to think about this. Now, what my thoughts are, you cannot impose values upon somebody because the whole point of it is that they're freely chosen, things that resonate with you. Like we said,
If you feel that someone, you know, if you can't even articulate it, but you feel if someone's gone against it, you certainly can't make somebody take on board those values. But there is some research out there that if you sort of choose as an organization and have a set of values, as long as people can find an overlap or like a bit like the harmonious element that I said before.
As long as people can make sense of what's important to them in the brand values and see that kind of relationship, actually that's how things, that's how it works well. but then what I would argue with brand, and I wonder what you think about this. Sometimes when people do values, it's not personal enough. It's too
because, you know, for example, as a charity, which charity would not care?
You know, if we all, if a charity says we care, for me, that feels obvious. So, so a bit like going back to the
that we did on Hazon's value, that personalisation of what that looks like and having some language that's uniquely reflective of you is where that becomes really important. And then it's helping people like employees see how that relates to what's important for them.
Fliss (34:05)
Yeah, it's a real interesting one. I always say that any company with integrity or something like that, as their value, it doesn't mean anything. As an employee, if you're a large corporate and similar things like service and quality as your values, that doesn't mean anything. And it can be misconstrued in so many different ways. Everyone interprets it so differently. So having something that's
Paula Louise Dixon (34:11)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Fliss (34:34)
really clear and unique to you as a business, but also actionable. So I've just done a workshop with a client where we've got their brand values and then I've got everybody in the different teams to write how that relates to their job role in terms of actions and behaviors. it enabled them to kind of really understand the values, but then also see how they differ across teams, which I think is really important.
Paula Louise Dixon (34:40)
Mmm.
Love it!
yeah.
Fliss (35:03)
But what you said about you want people to find some kind of meaning and synergy with the business values. I know people who recruit based on their company values. And I always say your values should attract your kind of...
Paula Louise Dixon (35:18)
Yeah, and I've done that. Yeah, I've done that before.
Fliss (35:25)
ideal clients, the people you love to work with, but they also attract your partners and your team. So you going and looking for collaboration opportunities with people with similar values. Yeah, that's what they're there for. And I do think when you're a founder of your own business and you've not really got a team or you might just be a couple of you, there is a bit of a blur between your personal values and your business values. Sometimes it can be quite hard to distinguish and, and
Paula Louise Dixon (35:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's important. I think as ⁓ somebody who has their own business, I think when you set out, your identity can become totally enmeshed with that business. And just as you if you work for an organisation, if I give you the example of in recruitment, if I engage with someone and they chose not to, it wasn't a personal reflection on me. It was kind of, it was a business that I worked for.
Fliss (35:55)
Yeah.
Paula Louise Dixon (36:22)
when it's your business and you're of reaching out to connect with someone and they're not interested, you can feel very, very personal. So I think what we have to sometimes do is almost depersonalize it a little bit. can have for me that thread, like we said, of adventure. In my personal life, that might be doing something ridiculous, ⁓ you know, trying to have any silly competition with the family or going to try something different in terms of food or whatever. You know, that's the most obvious expression of that.
Fliss (36:28)
Mm-hmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (36:50)
In work, it's not going to be something quite as extreme. It might be showing up in a slightly different way. bit like you said with different departments, the expression of it. But my personal values aren't a mirror image of my organisational ones. You know, I can be interested in learning and that can show up in work, but it's not all that I do. And I think sometimes just having a bit of a separation between the two so that you're not always a hundred percent enmeshed with the business. You've got to be the you outside of that.
And often when I do values work with individuals, we even look about how you might have different values that are more or less prominent in different sort of life domains. So what I mean by that is things like in friends and family relationships, in your personal relationship, in work, in your health, you know, there might be different values that are more or less important to you in that period of time that are the priority for you to focus on. So if your identity is wholly
you if you were coming to me as a coaching psychologist and saying, well, my values are exactly the same, I'd be like, well, let's unpack that a little bit because actually, you know, what's the bit of you that exists outside of that space? Because at some degree, it's healthy to have that degree of separation.
Fliss (38:03)
Hmm, that's really interesting. A couple of years ago, I did a bit of work with Brenda Etchells our good friend, and she reminded me of like, she did another values exercise with me to remind off the back of us doing some work. that exercise taught me that one of my most important values then was personal development. And I was squashing that for clients. Like I was putting all of my business development and personal learning down the list.
Paula Louise Dixon (38:10)
yes.
Cool.
Fliss (38:33)
And as soon as I pulled that higher up, I felt happier, but that is personal value. How that shows up in my own business is one of my business values is around curiosity. You can see why I turned into a coach. I love to learn and understand people and that's how that kind of shows up. But like right now I'm doing a lot of learning outside of work, so I'm not doing.
Paula Louise Dixon (38:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fliss (38:59)
any really in my business because it would be too much for me but I love to like learn outside of work and do personal development outside of work as well so it doesn't just have to be work brand related stuff that I'm always learning so it's really useful to kind of understand the difference of the two for me.
Paula Louise Dixon (39:02)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, that's really powerful
to think about that. And having that oversight, being able to step outside of, you know, the fact that you can say, I recognize I'm doing this in work, or sorry, outside of work, therefore I've got to manage work differently. You know, it's that sense of perspective, isn't it? That we can make choices. Whereas sometimes I think if we're not thinking like that, we can find ourselves trying to, you know, spin too many plates. And as you said, with the stress curve, that could be the bit that tips you from being...
highly motivated and having a lot on to that period of where you're kind of burning out. So it's great that you know to recognise that.
Fliss (39:50)
It's just goes to show how understanding these things really can help you. And it's a constant learning curve. I mean, I'd be interested to know whether there's been any kind of instances where, not necessarily mistakes, but anything even more recently, because you've known your values for a very long time, where you've kind of gone, ooh, that's not as you're fitting with me. ⁓
Paula Louise Dixon (40:11)
Hmm.
Yep.
That's an
interesting one. I'd probably have to, as a reflector, you've got, I'll come back to you on that one. that's a really good question though, because as somebody who is very values driven, I think probably sometimes thinking about who I might work with as a client or a coachee.
Fliss (40:28)
I've not prepped Paula with that question.
Hmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (40:45)
when I've sensed maybe, you know, there was an initial discovery calls where you're having a conversation. Sometimes I've kind of felt, hmm, maybe they've got a slightly different perspective to me on that one. And actually, you know, as an informed coach, maybe I'm not the best person on the basis of values to actually support that individual. So there have definitely been ⁓ sort of initial discovery calls where I've gone away and thought.
maybe we aren't quite a values aligned fit for what they're looking for, but also it was a felt sense because you can explore it and I'll often be quite upfront with people in that initial conversation about what my values are. Not always, but I think you sometimes get the other side of it, I suppose, is tuning into what you feel as well because I think often, I talk about being evidence-based, we lean into a lot of what's the evidence, but actually we can use our felt sense as well.
So sometimes if you're feeling something, it's worth kind of going, hmm, what's going on there? And kind of holding that lightly to tune in. So I would probably say my best example is, has been with coaches and interestingly, when I've had that felt sense and I've thought, you know, because I have to meet sort of three, four individual coaches, I've thought if they do choose me, what would I do? And actually in those moments, they've tended to go for other coaches.
Fliss (41:38)
Yes.
Mmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (42:05)
So it's
interesting, it's not been a sort of explicit thing, but I wonder sometimes whether it's more an implicit thing that we both felt that actually they felt someone else might meet their needs better.
Fliss (42:18)
Interesting. I feel like what you sort of meant, just described there was ⁓ almost, you know, when you get a red flag about a potential client and you either listen to it or you don't maybe, it's maybe often, not always, not always, but often a values clash. ⁓
Paula Louise Dixon (42:19)
Yeah.
Mmm. Mmm. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And in coaching,
you know, in terms of supervision, we're to look for those, you know, if you are engaging with someone and you're feeling something, obviously you turn up with unconditional positive regard, but it's really hard to do that if somebody's pushing buttons, you know, if they're talking about it. had a conversation with colleagues recently about what do you do in those situations where a coach, you know, there's a lot of things going on politically and around us that, we don't need to reference in detail, but what do you do?
And I think that in a coaching sense, takes you to a very interesting conversation because ultimately, what are you there to do as a coach? You know, are you there to impose your values or, know, if you have a strong feeling about something, is that what you're there for? Or actually you there to hold the space for someone else to work it out. So thankfully I've not had a significant moment in the moment, but I mean, that's why we have supervision because actually I'm picking some of that and making the unconscious conscious or working through it.
is really important, I think, in terms of influencing how you show up in your practice.
Fliss (43:40)
⁓ So for anyone who isn't a coach and doesn't regularly reflect on these things. ⁓ So are there any kind of ⁓ tips or simple ways people can use to kind of, if they're not necessarily clear on their personal values, are there any like tips you can give them for getting a bit
Paula Louise Dixon (43:44)
If we haven't converted them by now please, I don't know what we need to do. I don't know what else there is to do.
you
Fliss (44:09)
Maybe on personal values
Paula Louise Dixon (44:10)
Yeah, yeah,
there's a really nice one. So I'm a big fan of acceptance and commitment coaching. So the idea with that is that we sort of like the next iteration of CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, and it uses values as kind of, I've already referenced it, this idea of it acting like a moral compass, it gives us something to focus on. The other side of it is much more about managing our emotions, but I'm not going into that now.
Fliss (44:22)
Hmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (44:35)
But the idea is that when we start out with it, exactly that question, you know, sometimes you go, what's important to you? And people go, I'm not sure. So one of the exercises that's particularly helpful if you're interested in that is to think about, and within a work setting, you could look at work, family, friends, life, money, health, you know, you could choose it for any different aspect of life. But if we're talking about it in a work setting, it can be to imagine fast forwarding into the future, maybe like it's your retirement.
and people are talking about you and they're saying lovely things about you. And they're kind of reflecting on who you were as a person, how you made them feel, how you showed up. And we can often use those examples, those kind of stories and narratives. You don't want to self-censor. know, sometimes if you say, how do you want, you know, if you said to somebody directly, how would you like people to describe you? A lot of people feel very embarrassed and they really wouldn't want to say what they want to. So sometimes having a...
Fliss (45:31)
you
Paula Louise Dixon (45:33)
What would someone else say about you creates that distance so you don't feel quite so awkward. And the idea is that you really go to town on, you know, what are you doing? How did you make people feel? How did you show up? And from that, you can kind of distill when you read it back, what are some nice summary words that might best reflect what those values are? So what was it that you were doing in that moment or at that event? Often they say things like, you know, like a retirement event. So what was it about you?
essentially, and you could kind of mine it. When I do work with organisations like that, we look for stories of the organisation at its best, and then everybody can comment on that. And you're kind of mining those stories for those gorgeous gems that are very personal to that organisation, rather than, like we said before, being those very generic, we collaborate, we care, we have integrity. That could be a really nice example. I think, you know, using that sense of when you find the word
Fliss (46:10)
Hmm. Hmm.
Paula Louise Dixon (46:31)
Sometimes you can, if you Google on the internet, there's lists of different values and sometimes you can, you can do a bit of a sorting exercise. I've done that in coaching before you cut out the list of all the different values and you're literally looking at it and going, is that me? Yes. No, don't know. You can do it very sort of organically that way as well. So, but they're quite nice exercises to do. And just like you described earlier, you kind of then looking for the behaviors that sit underneath it. If I am being, you know, thoughtful.
What does that actually mean when I'm showing up? So trying to get to some of the core behaviors that sit behind it as well.
Fliss (47:06)
Yeah, because I think doing that really helps you to understand how you take it in essence and then kind of what you need to ⁓ do personally and for your business to make you as happy and fulfilled as you ⁓ can be in it.
Paula Louise Dixon (47:11)
Mmm. Yeah.
Yeah, and I think you, I
don't know about you, but I think you can definitely tell when people have values aligned, I think you can sense it in them. And often it's a bit like with strengths. I think if you spend a bit of time with someone, often you could have a good guess at what's important to that person based on how they show up. So another way of doing it is sometimes to ask other people as well, how they would describe you. And you can look at it that way as well. But again, that might feel awkward if you're a bit shy.
Fliss (47:52)
Or you just lap it up and go yeah crazy. What are the benefits of your personal values in business?
Paula Louise Dixon (47:54)
Happy in that group.
That's a good one. I think there's kind of an authenticity piece. If you know what's important to you and whether you're translating your personal value into your business in some way, shape or form, or you've got your personal values and they're different to what the workplace ones are, but there's harmony between them. As an experience, you're going to see somebody that is very authentic in the world, that is comfortable with talking about what's important to them.
how they want to show up in the world, the difference really that they want to make. And I think what you tend to see is that consistency of behaviour, because actually they give you a really strong foundation of, if I'm acting in line with my values, I feel, you know, centred and I feel grounded. So I think that often if people know what they are, your experience of them when you're collaborating with them, when you're sort of engaging with them, you're going to have a real strong sense of them feeling consistent and authentic as well.
I think you can sense it in others. Yeah, I think that's the main thing I'd notice.
Fliss (49:10)
I'd say that's very similar to having your brand values aligned. And I think that's where being a solo founder or freelancer, it gets murky waters, doesn't it? That's the importance of having those values and staying true to them.
Paula Louise Dixon (49:20)
Yeah.
Yeah,
long as they're harmonious and like we said, as long as they're not too enmeshed to the point that you don't have an identity outside of them. But I think you're always going to have that overlap, aren't you, in terms of how you're showing up in the world. But I mean, from psychological point of view, I think that's fine. Paula approved.
Fliss (49:41)
Yeah, yeah. There you go. There you go. So.
There's so many things we could chat about. You do a lot of different things. I just want to touch on your brand, actually. You do lots of different things. Have you found it tricky bringing all the things you do together under one brand, or has there been something that's helped it kind of all fit together?
Paula Louise Dixon (49:49)
you
I think, referring to you as a person that I engage with on this journey, I do think it's difficult, as soon as you say business psychology, going back to what you said, people, you have that, ooh, that sounds good. It certainly was never my intention to make people feel intimidated with that because I think if you know me, you know that I'm definitely not throwing information at people to intimidate them.
But I think it's challenging with psychology to kind of, you know, especially with the work that I do, might be change, recruitment, leadership development, executive coaching, neurodiver, it's hard to fit that into one umbrella because, if people go, what do you do, for example, in your networking, what are you going to do? Are you just going to regurgitate a laundry list of all the things that you do? So I think, you know, part of the work that we did together and sort of unpicking what does that look like?
When I got to the point of being able to say optimize people potential and understand what that looks like in terms of the offering might be with a broader range of organizations and sectors the most, and it might be across more levels the most, but I feel that for me, helping me get to that. I do, you know, I'm so pleased that you kind of took the coaching element further because I certainly felt that you were engaging with me through my brand development in a coaching way. I, you know,
I always felt that with you. So there's something, there was something in it for me of taking all of this like spaghetti. It's almost like an octopus with all these different arms and legs and kind of making it much more cohesive in a way that I can explain it to people now where, know, this is what I do. What it looks like is a different offering for people based on who you are and the sector and your role. But actually this idea of using psychology to help, you know,
Fliss (51:31)
Mm-mm.
Paula Louise Dixon (51:59)
make you at your best, help your performance, help your wellbeing. I think people can get on board with that.
Fliss (52:05)
Yeah, it's really interesting because actually I think you can find it tricky when you try and say all the things you do. If you're somebody who's that, you you've got lots of different things going on. ⁓ Multi hyphenate, we'll call you a multi hyphenate. I always strongly believe that there's an absolute thread through everything you do because you are a human being and there is, you know,
Paula Louise Dixon (52:12)
Yes.
And if you talk a lot like I do, I'll take it.
Fliss (52:31)
There's threads through everything you do. So if you can find that thread in what you've done through optimizing people's potential, that is a thread across everything you do. And it makes everything make sense. It's taking all the stuff you do. So you're no longer saying, I do this, this, this, and this. You're just going there with the outcome and the transformation, ⁓ which makes it all feel a lot more coherent.
Paula Louise Dixon (52:33)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. Yes. Yeah.
you
Yeah.
Yeah,
and I think there's something really nice in the optimiser. It kind of speaks to what could be. It feels very, I always wanted it to be, yes, I do work with people to solve problems, but for me, it's kind of the realisation of the potential, what could be. And that really motivates me. I get tremendous satisfaction from the work that I do. It's almost like sharing some of what I know.
and some of the knowledge and insights, but it's giving it to people and then it's watching what they do with it. So it's all, you know, it's almost like nothing to do with me anymore. It's seeing the transformation that they make to their own lives. And often, you know, I have lots of coaches that come back to me all the time later on and say, you know, it really changed my life. And for me, that's a real privilege that I get to work with people in that way, where we, you know, we take some of these aspects and actually they go on and do something with it that transforms how they are.
And it's way beyond just work, know, it's life changes. I've had people report back, they've given up smoking, the relationship with the partners change. We didn't even talk about those things. It was just that they felt so empowered. I hate to use all these cliche words, but you know, there's something in that that is just phenomenal.
Fliss (53:56)
Wow.
Yeah, I think it's the importance of knowing you and staying true to yourself which is important, which I think is a beautiful place to end our conversation. I am going to go away and do that me in the future exercise, you know me, I love a personal development thing.
Paula Louise Dixon (54:08)
Yeah.
Yeah.
⁓ Absolutely, yeah, love it.
Fliss (54:25)
But that's what, like, have even just revisiting your values every so often, every couple of years, I think is actually really important to kind of make sure. Sometimes some will be higher than, like, more important than others. So I do think it's really important. So I'm going to go away and do that. That's been very interesting. Paula, I've got a couple of questions for you before we finish. What, in your experience, is the biggest barrier to somebody doing things their way?
Paula Louise Dixon (54:28)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Thank
Great question. I'm going to say expectation. So a healthy dose of what they think other people think they should be doing. So whether that's bit of imposter phenomenon or people pleasing. It's surprising and I, know, in 2025, I hate to be saying it's a gender thing, but if I'm reflecting on the people that I work with, unfortunately at the moment, those expectations still tend to be more present in the female.
leaders and individuals that I work with, although there's much more of a balance. But I think that tends to get in people's way because actually they're focusing a lot on what they think they should be doing. And that, know, if you've taken a founder journey or done something, then you're definitely not doing what you think you should be doing. You've thrown that out of the window. So there's something in kind of helping people to notice what that looks like, because it can be very restrictive.
and helping them to create what could be. So going back to the values again, know, having that sense of values can be the bit that you use to help you recognise instead of worrying about what I should be doing, actually, I want to be heading towards what this looks like. So that's a math, I would say that's the number one.
Fliss (56:05)
Interesting, very interesting. And so I'd love to know one thing that's really helped you to do your thing.
Paula Louise Dixon (56:14)
Ooh, yeah, another great question. I'm going to honestly say the community of people around me, because whether it was Marjorie and Dave, shout out to those two amazing psychologists who I met right at the start, who saw some potential in me, and gave up so much time to collaborate and to just even meet with me and believe in this little dream that I had.
Fliss (56:24)
you
Paula Louise Dixon (56:41)
12, 13 years ago now. Just at that point having those individuals, but yourself and other individuals, we've already said about Brendan and other people within our wider community, Pete, Pete Evans, our other colleague as well. I think having that community around you who you can be honest with, you can show up and be real with, I'm a coach and I'm a founder, so there's sometimes there's an element of people expect you to have your together.
Fliss (57:11)
Haha!
Paula Louise Dixon (57:12)
But
yeah, but you know, there are going to be moments when you're worried and things are going on. And I think having had that, that real foundation and again, with the values, think, you know, our values match nicely and the same with other colleagues. Having that support around you when you're making some of these choices and decisions where people will really kind of believe in you and champion you and you can waltz and all with what's going on in your life. And they'll be like, we've got you. I think that is so important when you're a founder.
Fliss (57:44)
I totally, and that seems to be a massive theme when I'm talking to people as well. ⁓ You community. ⁓ That's really wonderful. I've really enjoyed our chat today. Thank you so much. As always, enjoy our chats. But I've got a lot from it, so thank you. ⁓ If people are thinking, this Paula woman's amazing, I want to know more. ⁓ Which I'm sure they will be. Where can they find you?
Paula Louise Dixon (57:50)
Yeah.
Thank you.
I hope so.
Yep, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me along today. You can find me at hazonconsulting.com on the internet and find me as Paula Louise Dixon on LinkedIn. So I tend to show up mostly on those places, but it'd be great to connect with people if you are interested in all things psychology.
Fliss (58:31)
Yes, Paula's very interesting, so definitely do that. Thank you so much for today, Paula. It's been great to chat.
Paula Louise Dixon (58:35)
you
My pleasure. Thanks for having me Fliss.
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