“The learning never ends” with Jag Panesar
Do your thing · Episode 3 · Hosted by Fliss Lee
Lessons from 18 years of running a business, adapting to change and learning from failure
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Jag Panesar has been running his business for 18 years. So naturally, I've always assumed he's got it all figured out.
I jokingly call Jag my business dad. Not because he's way older than me (he'd want me to make that very clear), but because when we met, he'd already been running his business for years and I saw him as someone who knew what he was doing.
Then, over a coffee a few years ago, Jag told me that he learns a lot from me too. And that stuck with me.
So I knew I wanted to get him on the podcast to talk about what he's learned from 18 years of running a business – and whether you ever really reach the point where you've got it all figured out.
Jag is the founder and director of Xpand, a digital marketing agency he started back in 2007. We talk about how differently he thinks about running a business now compared to when he started, from letting go of the idea that success meant having an office and looking corporate, to completely changing the way his agency is structured.
We also get into learning from failure, adapting your business when things don't go to plan, celebrating how far you've come, knowing when to keep going, and why, even after 18 years, the learning never ends.
What you’ll learn in this episode
What 18 years of running a business have taught Jag about success, failure and figuring things out as you go
Why being willing to adapt your business is so important as your circumstances, priorities and the world around you change
Why self-belief, determination and learning from what doesn't work can help you keep going
Listen to the episode
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About Jag Panesar
Jag Panesar is the founder and director of Xpand, a digital marketing agency based in West Yorkshire.
With 18 years in business, Jag has worked with organisations ranging from global brands to SMEs across the UK. His background is in marketing strategy, and Xpand works across strategy, branding, web design and digital marketing.
Connect with, and follow Jag
Learn more about Xpand
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Chapters
00:00 – Meet Jag Panesar and Xpand
01:25 – How Jag started his business 18 years ago
05:32 – Why you have to figure business out as you go
07:47 – What Jag believed about business when he started
10:18 – How Jag's idea of success has changed
13:34 – Finding your people when you work for yourself
15:52 – What has changed after 18 years in business?
20:34 – Do you ever actually figure business out?
23:22 – Why failure is part of running a business
24:22 – Knowing when to keep going – and when to stop
27:23 – Why businesses need to adapt to survive
29:21 – Taking things one step at a time
31:57 – How to keep your business feeling fresh
35:03 – Don't take success for granted
36:26 – The reality of running a business 18 years in
38:05 – The learning never ends
39:58 – How your brand evolves with your business
42:43 – Getting over the fear of failure
49:31 – What Jag wishes new business owners knew
51:44 – Is self-belief the biggest barrier?
53:19 – Staying in love with your business
Transcript
Fliss (00:00)
Hi Jag I am excited to have you here.
Jag (00:03)
Hi Fliss, how you doing?
Fliss (00:05)
Yeah good thank you. So for anyone who doesn't know you, let's start by hearing about who you are and what you do.
Jag (00:15)
Okay, firstly, thanks for having me, Fliss. I'm Jag. I run a digital marketing agency called Xpand ⁓ We have been going for 18 years and we offer a series of services. Probably strategy first is how I would describe it. My background is marketing strategy. So we provide businesses with marketing strategy, ⁓ branding, web design development, ⁓ social media.
SEO, pay-per-click, the kind of thing that gets you out there. And ultimately everything that we do is about measuring the result that we're able to get for them. The types of businesses that we work with, the notable names are, we've got brands like Link Chocolate under our belt, Tetley Brewery, His Majesty's Prison Service. But our kind of prime target audience that we really target tends to be the B2B arena.
construction, manufacturing, and what I would describe as general B2B services, things like recruitment, HR, finance, law, B2B services. So yeah, that's us in a nutshell.
Fliss (01:25)
That's
you, just said ⁓ we've been in business 18 years. So that's why I really wanted to chat to you. ⁓ I call you my business dad, which you hate because there aren't actually that many years. It's not to do with your age. ⁓ It's because when I met you, ⁓ you've been in business a lot longer than me. And I see you as this wise man who knows everything, who's got it all figured out. That's why you're my business dad. ⁓
Jag (01:30)
Yep.
Yep, thanks for that.
Fliss (01:53)
But I'd love you to share a bit about, I'd love us to chat about the 18 years in your business. Thinking back to year one, like, my God, how did you feel in year one, like, when you were starting out? Why did you start out and how did it come about?
Jag (02:14)
Firstly, with the business dad thing, you can call me that but just don't expect any pocket money. Let's get that straight. So now that's cleared up. How did it come about? I've grown up around businesses. My family had numerous businesses. They had a garage, had an electrical contractor, had a van IJ business. I was really fortunate to grow up around.
I always knew I wanted to do something, but I never knew what it was. And I knew I didn't want to join the family business because it's a big family. I'm one of the youngest and there's some very strong characters there. And I always kind of felt that I would never be anything more than the T-boy if I joined the family business, because that's how strong the hierarchy works. ⁓ So ⁓ yeah, I went to university. I got a job in a small manufacturing, a garage equipment business. ⁓
Fliss (02:47)
You
Jag (03:06)
There was no marketing role there. I started in sales because it was hard to get a job in marketing after my degree. And then I basically introduced a lot of marketing stuff. Google Ads or Google AdWords, as it was called at the time, was a brand new thing. So I would just I just introduced that to the directors and said, what about this? Give me a little bit of budget. And I introduced kind of channel after channel. mean, social media was wasn't a thing at all. Then we were selling on eBay. We were importing from China and basically long story short.
Fliss (03:11)
Mm.
Jag (03:34)
⁓ It became a bit of a playground for me and because I was able to achieve success at the time they thought, this is brilliant. We'd have to send expensive sales guys out with cars and phones and hotel stays driving up and down the country to sell a thousand pound piece of kit. We can have them inbound and it created a lot of success. So yeah, I got promoted in the business and it was going great. Sadly, the business went bust. Nothing to do with me. It was bad cashflow management. The sales were coming in. They were not able to fulfill.
And it was a great lesson in how not to run a business. ⁓ When the business went bust, they said to me, well, they set another business up, but only with the directors. And they said, right, we're not going to give you a job, Jag, but we would like you to, we'll give you this iMac. And we would like you to do the design work and ⁓ be a supplier to us. So technically, they were my first client.
Fliss (04:06)
Hmm.
Jag (04:30)
And then from there, at that point, this is 2007, at that point, I was due to get married. I'd just put a deposit on a house with my fiance at the time, which we were due to get in May. So I was made redundant in April. We got the keys to the house in May, and I set up the business in, I think it was June, and then I got married in July. So yeah, I don't know married life without having worked.
being self-employed, so was a huge amount of risk. I was pretty blase about it at the time, but when I look back, I think, wow. ⁓ And yeah, I kind of stayed within the garage equipment arena for a few years ⁓ because I was kind of scared, I suppose, to get out there and network and build, you know, get myself out there. And yeah, but then it kind of grew from there. That's kind of how it started.
Fliss (05:09)
Hmm.
Do you think that blasé nature helps you when you start it out?
Jag (05:32)
I so. I mean, I don't know if this is a thing with everyone, but you know, for me, when I think back to when I was a bit younger, I don't know if the word is courageous or foolish, but I was just a bit or less experienced, which could also be classed as foolish. I just kind of went for it and I thought, okay, you know, it's a thing I've always wanted to do. I've got ideas, I've got demand. I'm getting people who saying they like what I do and there is value there. So I just took the plunge.
⁓ And yeah, it kind of came together.
Fliss (06:06)
Yeah, I do always think there's an element of figure it out as you go along and see where the wind takes you when you start a business often. It tends to work out well.
Jag (06:17)
Yeah, 100%. I mean, like I said, let's put it this way. I grew up around family businesses. I spent a lot of time around them. My dad used to make me go in the summer holidays to his garage and help out on wash vans and answer calls. So was learning from a very, very, very young age. You could probably call it child labor, really, based on the age that I was there. I hated it at the time, but it was a great work ethic. I then collectively studied business for seven years from, let's say, GCSE, A level, HND.
Fliss (06:36)
You
Jag (06:47)
degree level, chartered Institute of Marketing. Then I went into business and I still wasn't prepared. I thought, well, hang on a minute, did I miss these lectures? Why is, and the truth is when my genuine belief, I work with a lot of new start businesses. I work with established businesses. I mentor businesses, not just in marketing in wider, the wider area. It doesn't matter what education you've had. It's a baptism of fire. It's, it's, you have to learn it as you're going through it because.
It's just one of those things.
Fliss (07:18)
Yeah, yeah, that's entirely my experience. And I think there's a lot to be said for learning on the job, actually, because you're never going to learn the lesson. I mean, I'm that kind of person I learn by doing, but you're never going to learn the lesson fully by learning the theory. You've got to be thrown in at the deep end. Yeah. So what did you believe back then that's completely changed after
Jag (07:26)
Yeah, yes.
Absolutely, yeah.
Fliss (07:47)
like now in 18 years, 18 years later.
Jag (07:51)
I my belief back then was I probably because I've been conditioned in that way of growing around, you know, growing up around successful businesses. My belief was that I must have an office. must. ⁓ Well, I didn't actually at the time have any kind of plan to employ people. I wanted to set up on my own and then get involved in other businesses. I did not have any intention of developing a team, but I knew there was this kind of very traditional
Fliss (08:06)
Hmm.
Jag (08:21)
sense of status, you must drive a nice car and have an office and all that kind of stuff. I did end up getting involved in another business about two years in and I was spreading myself too thin and actually both businesses were actually struggling because of that. So I departed from the second business and just focused in on Xpand. And that is probably a very concise way to put it.
kind of outline my beliefs in that. At the time I thought, yes, I will be an entrepreneur, I will be the next Alan Sugar and I will have all these businesses. But actually I thought, no, you know what, I'm going to do this one thing and I'm going to do it well. And it was after I departed from out of the business, purely by chance, I ended up employing them within the space of six months, it went from me to four of us. So that was quite a baptism of fire. Fast forward now to now, know, 18 years in, that belief has changed. ⁓
Fliss (09:04)
you
Hmm.
Jag (09:21)
We, only four or five months ago, became a fully remote agency. Up until five months ago, we had an office for something like 17 years, because the first nine months I was working from home. And it was a big move. Obviously, COVID changed a lot of that, and a lot of companies went fully remote. My team wanted to remain in the office.
And so I thought, okay, brilliant, great. But then 2023 was a really tough year for us, the hardest I've ever experienced. And when the lease came up for renewal, I thought, you know what, it's an overhead we don't need. We're actually barely ever there. And let's just kind of rework the whole structure of the way that we work. So I think there is definitely quite a gap between 18 years ago, what I thought business, what I should be and where it is now.
Fliss (10:18)
How is your, so it sounds like what you kind of want from your business or how you want it to work has changed quite a lot in the 18 years. Have you seen that? Have you kind of recognized that over many years?
Jag (10:32)
Yeah, I mean when I started out, I mean I was 27 and you know, I thought I was going to live forever. So I hadn't really thought about any long term exit planning or anything like that. The mindset has definitely changed. I was just kind of taking a day at a time and chugging along and enjoying the journey of doing all these amazing things and learning and all the good stuff that came with it. Whereas now I'm definitely
I'm less corporate. I used to think that I have to have this facade and I must go to work suited and booted and go to meetings and throw business cards around. And the world has changed a lot. And I'm very much a believer in just being yourself and authenticity. And the saying is your vibe attracts your tribe. And when you're working with people that
you like and recognize your value, you're going to build that connection and you're going to do so much better work with them versus, you know, if you're just working with this really massive contract that pays great money, but they're horrible to work with and they're a bit of a pain in the backside. That's the thing that I used to say I'm willing to accept that.
Whereas now, you know, it's about being a bit more selective based on values. And that's kind of a thing I know that you very much believe in as well, first, know, a vibe that you've always given. And I thought that is actually brilliant. it took me, you know, when I think of that as a transition from 18 years ago to now, you know, it didn't happen overnight. It's been kind of a blend into that line of thinking over the years.
Fliss (12:12)
What do you think made your thinking change then in that respect?
Jag (12:19)
I think probably the influence of a lot of people around me, tend to kind of, I'm a pack animal. I learned by osmosis and I was fortunate to find myself in social stroke business circles, which, you know, all blends into one as a business owner, I believe, know, separating business and personal is a hard thing to do because, your business is your baby, you live the business. And finding myself around lots of groups of people.
like yourself, you know, that I could relate to and really respect and just, just kind of blending into that, that thinking and a lot of my team members as well. And I think also there's probably a generational thing, you know, even kind of the juniors that I employed, obviously there are differences in mindsets with, with different generations. And, know, by just by having it at one point, a pretty young team around me, I was all about let's shape things together rather than
do as I say and we go this way. I obviously had to lead it, but I wanted everybody on the journey and everyone to have a say. So I think it was just a blend of being around all kinds of different people, the right kind of people for me over several years.
Fliss (13:34)
Did you find your kind of people straight away when you got into business or did it take a little while to figure out kind of who were the right ones?
Jag (13:43)
I didn't have any people for three, four, five years maybe. I was a cave dweller. I would stay indoors. My wife would come home from a day's work and I hadn't talked to anyone besides the odd phone call with a client and I'd be yapping away and do her heading and she said, right, this is too much, you need to get an office. And I could barely afford it then. So I got an office and there was a bit more ⁓ kind of interaction with people. I was afraid.
Fliss (14:04)
you
Jag (14:12)
Maybe not afraid, but I was anxious about networking back then. You know, I always tell the story of driving to a networking event in Leeds. There was a bit of traffic. I look at my watch and think, no, I'm going to be late. I might as well turn back. And I turned back. And God knows how many opportunities I missed that day because, you know, I'm a very social person and I definitely am now, but the confidence of walking into a room full of strangers is quite daunting when you're not used to it. ⁓ And yeah, and I think...
I, it took a while for me to get into that. And when I started recognizing the benefits and realizing, you know, networking isn't about walking in and walk out with an order, it's about building the relationships. And that slowly came in. And I think it took a good few years for me to really understand that. And now I, I know I need to be out and about meeting new people. There's no better feeling then than.
meeting someone and saying, you know who you should speak to? You should speak to this person and connecting them up and then knowing that they've collaborated or done something together. To me, that's one of the best things in the world to be able to be part of that.
Fliss (15:09)
you
I cannot imagine you being nervous about networking. You are a very chatty man.
Jag (15:21)
Yeah, yeah,
yeah, I've been told. ⁓ Yeah, like I say, there is a huge difference and a lot of people say that when I say it, tell them for the first time. But I think that's just a great example of the evolution and the growth that I've been through. And after this amount of time that you just grow its life experience. And yeah, it's a very positive change for me.
Fliss (15:52)
Ah, that's nice. So in that 18 years, what's changed about how you run your business and what's stayed the same? Big question.
Jag (16:04)
Yeah, very big question. What stayed the same? Probably nothing because we're in the digital marketing arena. They're still called websites. That stayed the same. Everything else has changed. Digital marketing wasn't even a phrase in 2007. At least I've not heard of it. And sorry, what was the other question?
Fliss (16:25)
Yes,
so what's stayed the same and what has changed about how you run your business?
Jag (16:31)
Everything has changed about the way that it's run. The big real baptism of fire was when I started hiring, figuring out the systems, the structure, the procedures, because I used to do everything myself. And when I realized, oh, hang on a minute, I can get specialist people in to do this really good thing. So from 2012, when I started hiring up until 2020, when we had lockdown, I insisted that I would have people in house.
you know, we had about six or seven people always, and they were always, they all had their own niche specialism. And then lockdown came and we were fortunate from a business perspective that we had a strong pipeline and everybody needed to go digital. So we had a fair bit of work coming in after the initial freeze of about three weeks when, you know, we finally figured out, right, something's got to happen. And, and,
At that point we needed to grow so I thought well I don't want to recruit during lockdown because you know I'm big on people culture. I thought well how do I retain that while we're all sat in our bedrooms working. So I started outsourcing to people I knew and trusted that I'd be networking for some time and at that point I developed an associate model and since then that associate model has actually grown significantly.
because I've worked with some amazing team members, I've employed some amazing people, I've developed some amazing people, they've supported me and developed me as well. ⁓ But actually, from a black and white business perspective, when the work's not there, when business is quiet, you've still got the overhead when you've got bums on seats. And from an affordability perspective, I might have only been able to afford up to say mid-level, as an average, a mid-level person. Whereas if I could outsource to...
a senior level associate, I'm only paying for them when the work comes in and I'm getting very high levels of experience and expertise. So when I compare that to 18 years ago, I never even imagined that that's what I would be doing. ⁓ Even six, seven years ago, I wouldn't have imagined I would now be embracing a very strong associate model. And that probably comes from having managed my team internally, learning so much from them.
Fliss (18:23)
you
Jag (18:50)
and having a, I don't know, a top 30 % level knowledge of every function that we have. And that's enough information for me to manage it and talk about it. And when it comes to the expertise and the depth, that's where the expert comes in to deal with it.
Fliss (19:05)
Do you think that kind of shift in your mindset is through experience or partly as well because of the way like the world like people generally in the world and how they see business running has changed as well? Do you think it's a mix of both?
Jag (19:10)
you
Probably a mix of both. mean, in our sector, in the marketing arena, I think this is becoming more and more of a thing. AI is obviously a very prominent thing now. I'm hearing stories about bigger agencies with plans to obviously become more efficient, which sadly is probably going to lead to job losses, which I believe will then lead to more freelancers, which means that there will probably be a lot more kind of associates essentially.
out there. So the world is changing, know, the becoming more efficient because of the tech. And also my own mindset, I have developed and grown and changed over the years. I don't think I know anyone. When we work with Newstart businesses and lay their brand foundation and put a strategy together, I've never sat down with someone a year in and seen them say, yeah, we did exactly everything that we planned.
because it was great. And the reason they've never done anything, they haven't always done 100 % of the things because they're learning as they develop and also no business operates in a vacuum environment. There's always something external that's gonna cause you to have to shift the boat in a different direction. So it's a combination of the two, I think.
Fliss (20:34)
Hmm, that's really interesting. I'm now going to ask you something, and I know the answer to this question. So there's this perception that if you've been in business for many years, that everything clicks into place. So has this been true for you? Don't say that.
Jag (20:53)
I cry myself to sleep every night. ⁓ No, I don't. don't.
No, do you know, I mean, there are times when yes, it beautifully clicks into place, but there are also plenty of times when it doesn't. And, you know, I almost feel like it's a rite of passage for it to not click into place. have to know, have to take the rough with the smooth. You have to know that things are not going to go because...
I think business is genuinely not about, yeah, you say, want to get from A to B, I want to do it like this, but just think about life in general. I don't know, you know, just living a life, getting a mortgage, having children, whatever, it never goes to plan, but you just kind of keep moving in a certain direction. ⁓ it's, things are always moving. what I learned was,
There's that saying, know, is it going to if you're worried about it now, just think about in five years time, is it going to bother you or not? Is it still going to be a real problem? And the reality is, is 99 % of the time, no, it's not going to be a problem in five years time. But you have to kind of I feel like you have to go through those stresses and anxieties in order to break those boundaries to know in a year's time that actually that isn't a thing to worry about anymore. I heard I was listening to a podcast the other day and they were likening
Fliss (22:12)
Mmm.
Jag (22:16)
you know, the learning in business to go into the gym. You go to the gym and lift weights and you break your muscle, you stretch your muscle and you break it and then you go through the pain and it has to heal in order for it to be bigger. And you've got to do that with your own mindset. You've got to almost go through these stresses and then to be able look back and say, oh yeah, I've got those wall wounds that healed and I can just laugh at that thing back there now. So yeah, it...
Fliss (22:41)
Mm.
Jag (22:44)
you definitely get challenges that come along ⁓ and sometimes I've ⁓ found myself worrying about the same kind of challenge that I found myself in five years ago or 10 years ago and I've forgotten about it and I think yeah, hang on a minute, I'd solve that problem like this or I worried about it more than I needed to and nothing actually came of it. So you know I think a lot is to be said for you know the same you know people say don't worry it might never happen.
The reality is, it barely ever happens. It's just an anxiety of, my God, what if this happens? But what you should be thinking is, what if this great thing happens and just keep pushing towards that?
Fliss (23:22)
Yeah, and I think it's a really creative thing to fail and learn from your failures, don't like the word, and kind of you learn from that don't you and you kind of know what to do and what not to do over the years.
Jag (23:38)
Yeah, failure, I firmly believe failure is a fundamental part of success. No big name in the world that you know, business tycoons or inventors or whatever, their backstory will all involve failure. Richard Branson's had companies go bust, Alan Sugar's had companies that have gone bust, but you know, they're out there. And naturally, I suppose as humans, we look at someone else and think, my God, their grass is so green. I wish my grass was as green as theirs, but.
Fliss (23:53)
Yeah.
Jag (24:08)
their backstory, it just depends on what people want to show or what you want to see as well.
Fliss (24:13)
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's about, you can't figure it out without like having a few things that don't actually work necessarily because you're to go down a rabbit hole and go, no, this isn't right, I've got go back here. So it's not a straight line, is it, business?
Jag (24:22)
Yeah.
Yeah,
no, and I think you mentioned a really good point there in that one thing I think I'm, I think this is kind of a weakness and a strength in me. I can never quite figure it out. I kind of stick to my guns and I will see it through. I think, you know what, I'm just keep going. Times are tough. I don't care. I'm just going to keep going. It will get better. And people have said, that's brilliant. You know, Jag, I really like that you've kind of stuck to your guns and
Fliss (24:40)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jag (24:55)
gone this full time and Xpand has remained a thing. But I see other people who have kind of gone down a certain route and they think, right, you know what, this is too much. I'm going to call this a day on this thing and I'm going to do that thing instead. And I've got so much respect for that. But there's something in me that just doesn't give in and just keeps on going forwards and just knowing where to draw the line and knowing where, you know, is it success? Is it failure or is there still a chance? I don't know if it's excessive optimism on my part.
But I feel like that is a thing, personally, even after this amount of time, is not really ⁓ something I've fully figured out on knowing when to stop and or when to carry
Fliss (25:36)
But that's probably why you've been in business for 18 years because you're pretty determined to do it and stay in business and try it in lots of different ways I think.
Jag (25:48)
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think that is a fundamental element in business is determination. know, people who set up in business, that is one big step in, that is the first big step. I'm gonna set up a business. And then after that, it is sheer grit and determination that gets you through. I'm a firm believer that you don't have to be the sharpest tool in the box, the smartest person in the room. You can have, let's say,
an average ability, you could have, but with the right kind of drive, you can move mountains. Whereas the other way around, it could actually just fail. you're the smartest person in the room and not really that driven and a bit lazy, it's not gonna work. It is about drive and determination.
Fliss (26:36)
Yeah, and there's a bit of resilience in there. It's not about resilience of pushing through when you feel crap and all that stuff. It's more about, want this and I'm gonna find ways to make it happen. Resilience, isn't it? I'm gonna keep going after a break. Yeah.
Jag (26:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and after a
bit, and I think that's really important, that's a really valid point Fliss knowing, I've definitely done this. I don't think I've ever experienced burnout. I can't say, well, I know what it is in textbook, but I know I've had times when I felt very, know, ⁓ rundown, tired, worn out, but just knowing when to give yourself a bit of a break. ⁓ But yeah, it is resilience in anything. You've just got to keep on punching.
Fliss (27:03)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jag (27:23)
And like I said before, I mean, this sticks with me from my A-level business. The one thing I remember from my teacher, I can't remember his name, I think it was Mr Graham. He said, remember this Jag, no business operates in a vacuum environment. He said, write that down in your A-level exam and you'll get points. I don't know if he's allowed to do that. Sorry, Mr Graham, if I've just dobbed you in.
Fliss (27:28)
you
Jag (27:45)
But it stuck with me and the resilience, goes, going back to resilience, no business operates in a vacuum environment. There's something external that's going to impact your business. Great example, COVID, and just know that, right, I want to do this thing right. Something external has happened. Adjust, just keep moving the boat, change the direction of the boat, and then re-change it and change it. And as long as you're going in some kind of a progressive direction, then that's positive.
Fliss (28:10)
I think you've just hit on something there actually because obviously it's like, know, in 18 years, things have changed massively and now you don't have the office anymore, which I'm sure was quite difficult for you to kind of let go. But it's that agility over the years, you know, through COVID you were agile. And then since then, been agile, it sounds like that agility and that willing to just shift things has really kind of kept things.
going for you.
Jag (28:41)
Yeah, yeah, well, you have to. ⁓ Otherwise, well, you know, we all know, you know, some of the most famous case studies of not adapting to the market, like Blockbuster didn't adapt to streaming Netflix and all the streaming platforms, HMV didn't adapt to streaming. And now you've got Spotify, you know, you've got to adapt to the markets. ⁓ Otherwise, you're going to get left behind. And again,
Fliss (28:54)
Yeah. ⁓
Jag (29:08)
so much more in the marketing industry because it's so tech-led. ⁓ If you don't move forward with it, you'll get left behind.
Fliss (29:14)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it's that vacuum that you're not in, which is yeah. ⁓ So what do you think figuring it out in business means to you?
Jag (29:21)
Yeah, yeah.
That's a very broad and philosophical question. I think, well, I'm a very, I have a very process-driven mind. It's kind of break it down systematically and take it step by step.
Fliss (29:36)
It is, yes. It
Jag (29:53)
I often forget and sometimes get really frustrated and flustered with, I want to do this thing and I'm not achieving it and I'm really annoyed. But then when I break it down and think, right, there's 50 steps in this thing or 20 steps. Look, just get step number one done today and you've made progress. And then step two tomorrow, step three the day after, and just make sure you're kind of breaking things down and just taking it in bite sized pieces. And also a fundamental thing I think is to
Make sure you're congratulating yourself when you're on your own in business or even if you're with a business partner. It's a lonely place. It's a really tough place to be when you're of learning about all these new things. You've got to reward yourself. You've got to give yourself a pat on the back. You've got to not beat yourself up if things have gone wrong and you've got to remember, know, celebrate the wins. That's something a business coach told me a long time and it took a while for it to sink in.
Fliss (30:47)
you
Jag (30:51)
I would just beat myself up for all the failures that were happening and not noticing the success because again I think human nature is just sadly we're more inclined just to think of the things that haven't happened rather than things that have happened.
Fliss (31:06)
Definitely, and I think when you look at what you've achieved, which I'm sure you've had many moments of 'wow' over the years, like when you look at what you've achieved, it makes it all feel worthwhile, and if you don't stop to celebrate those moments, you've not got that moment of 'yes', I can keep going.
Jag (31:24)
Yeah,
100%. You know, every now and again, when I look back at specific moments and I see stuff and I think, oh, wow, my God, we were doing some really cool stuff back then. That was a really good time because this thing happened and that thing happened. And you've got to, yeah, it's really important. Well, in marketing full stop, you're meant to review everything that you've done so you can see how far you've come. It's important to do that in business and in life, I think, in general.
Fliss (31:37)
you
Jag (31:52)
because it's so easy to get bogged down and reflect. It's important to reflect.
Fliss (31:57)
Yes, well, as a coach, I do a lot of reflecting. And so I'm the type of person who really loves trying new things and experimenting on things. How do you keep it feeling kind of like fresh this long, this far in?
Jag (32:01)
Yeah.
Hmm.
You know, that's a great question. As you've pointed out, I'm an old boy. Thanks for that, Fliss. You know, I'll be honest, I am not. I wouldn't describe myself as an early adopter. I don't think I ever have been. Do you remember Clubhouse, the social media, the audio social media platform that was all the rage during lockdown? My team at the time, it was out and it was all the rage and people were saying, my team was saying, maybe we should get.
Fliss (32:22)
Hehehehehe
Yes!
Yeah.
Jag (32:46)
and open up a room and start doing it. I really had to kind of, I was the only one saying, no, let's not put resource into it now. Let's wait a while. And the reason for that was we could have spent a lot of time on it and it might not last. And I remember this happened with Vine the first time it came out, which was like an early Instagram. We put a lot of time into it and then it ceased to be a thing. I think it's back again, but I'm not sure. And Clubhouse was the same. And I believe Clubhouse is, well, not a thing anymore.
And I'm really glad that we didn't. So yes, we're in the marketing game, but we're not in this extreme high performance level of market that we work in. I kind of would rather wait and see kind of proof of concept in other areas and then adopt it. ⁓ And keeping it fresh is, I think sometimes it's a challenge because now more than ever, there are so many fragmented options of the kind of things that you can do, especially with AI.
So it's just making that decision on which piece of tech or which app or which tool to adopt to do what you're doing. Because it could be out of date in six months time. It's tough. It's tough. But I think for me, in answer to the question, is just making sure I'm having conversations. Well, people like yourself, when we're having conversations, you're talking about, I did this really cool thing with AI and I did that thing. And that, for me, kind of that's the learning.
Fliss (33:52)
Yeah.
Jag (34:12)
kind of collaborating and engaging with people about it and getting their thoughts and opinions.
Fliss (34:18)
Mm, yeah, it's like, keep it fresh by speaking to people and learning all the time. Yeah.
Jag (34:25)
Yeah, you gave a much shorter, answer than I did. That's
what I meant. ⁓
Fliss (34:31)
That's just what I do, isn't it? I love that. What is one lesson that you keep coming back to even now?
Jag (34:33)
It really is. ⁓
Erm, one lesson that I keep coming back to would be erm, what a lesson that I keep learning. Do you mean?
Fliss (34:58)
Yeah, or you have
learnt and you remember it. Yeah.
Jag (35:03)
⁓ It's probably, I mean there's so many of them, but the one that springs to mind is, know, just don't take things for granted because even though, ⁓ you know, things can be going amazingly well, things can change very quickly. Again, lockdown, great example. So many businesses, let's say in hospitality, went down almost overnight and there are some things you can't control and
You know, there are times when I think, you know, I have taken things for granted or maybe become complacent about it. And off the back of that, might have meant some kind of loss or some kind of downfall in some kind of way. So it's always just don't take it for granted and just always give the right kind of thing, the right kind of attention, because when you get caught in the fuzz,
of running a business every day, it's so difficult to step back and kind of look, you know, work on the business when you're really stuck in the thick of it. And sometimes that's when things can go wrong. So I always have to remember, all right, don't get too close to don't get stuck too far in, but don't step too far back, which is also a thing that I've done. I've stepped too far back in the past and things afraid a little bit. And I thought, crikey, I need to jump back in now and tighten it all up again.
Fliss (36:26)
more kind of
tightrope.
Jag (36:28)
Yeah it is, it is and I think that's always a thing and there are, you know the classic saying is it's like spinning plates and I feel that once every 12 months, six months, I don't know, I find this beautiful level of equilibrium but it only lasts maybe 24 hours. It's a day where I think, this is perfect and then one of the plates will drop and then...
As I'm running over to catch that plate, I knock over another three plates and then, yeah, it all falls apart and then you start spinning them again. That's the only way I can describe it.
Fliss (37:04)
everyone who's listened to this is only a couple of years in is going ⁓ god sorry
Jag (37:08)
Yep, yep, it never gets any better.
No, it does, it does get better. And I'm talking about kind of, hopefully these are relatable things that I'm talking about because, and it comes down to, it's kind of like a graphic equalizer. You've just got to always change the settings for the sounds and just make sure, and the settings need to change every day. And that's what being, in my belief, a business owner is about. It's about spinning a lot of different plates.
at one time. I think maybe I'm saying that coming from a business that offers so many services that involve so many different types of tech and so many changes. So maybe I'm feeling that more, but you know, what this points to me, it makes me think maybe it's time to niche down a little bit. So I'm just thinking about less things and just cutting deeper into the market.
Fliss (37:58)
Hmm, interesting. And is there anything that you don't feel like you've quite fully figured out yet?
Jag (38:05)
Life. That's a short answer for you. ⁓ the learning never ends, Fliss, you know? And I think that's probably one of the greatest things about it because, you know, if we knew absolutely everything, we would be celestial beings, you know? We'd be gods if we knew everything. Part of the fun of it is learning, is the learning as we go along. And like I mentioned before, sometimes just relearning a lesson that you've...
Fliss (38:06)
You
You
Yeah.
Jag (38:34)
you've forgotten. ⁓ Yeah.
Fliss (38:38)
Yeah, I think that's why I like being self-employed personally because if I'm in an employed job for more than two years, I tend to get a bit bored because it kind of gets samey samey. When you're self-employed, you're always learning something new. You can change it if you want and it's got so many opportunities, but it's down to you to do it. Yeah.
Jag (38:49)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
you're the master of your own destiny really and that's that's kind of pretty daunting probably to some people that are in the employed world but we've chosen to become self-employed to be the master of our own destiny and it's not an easy thing to do but when you have the this is why I saying it's so important to celebrate the successes and review and reflect on what you've done because when you look at those things it's
If everyone could do it, if it was easy, everybody would do it. But it's not. It's a very tough thing to do. So credit to anyone that's been out there, even just for a few years. It's hard work.
Fliss (39:37)
Yeah, hard work, but it's the hardest thing, but the best thing. Probably like having children, I imagine. Very similar, yeah.
Jag (39:41)
It is, it is. Yeah, same here, I don't have children. Yeah, I don't have children, but
I'd imagine you have good days and you have bad days. And there's probably days when the business absolutely does your head in, probably as children do, but you still love the business because it's your little baby that you've grown and nurtured and developed.
Fliss (39:58)
Hmm, yeah. And that's what I love about you, like, your business is still your baby that you've nurtured. Like, how has your brand changed over the years?
Jag (40:12)
Um, it's developed a lot. Um, you know, in all honesty, you know, I knew I started out as a marketeer. What I would describe as a technical marketeer, all the, technical stuff and the business structure and strategy brand as a concept in the way that say you talk about it Fliss was a thing that was alien to me 18 years ago. I've learned and developed the brand into what it is. So actually it probably wasn't even well, everything's a brand, I suppose, but it wasn't
a brand back then, whereas now it has meaning and has beliefs and has values. Right now, because we've kind of moved out of the office, I'm using this as an opportunity to actually completely reshape. ⁓ Well, maybe not completely reshape, just look at it and review it all, which is a very important thing to do. And I haven't done it for a while. So thought this is a really fitting time. So I couldn't actually tell you how it what it is exactly right now. It probably isn't going to change too much from what it was, but.
Fliss (40:58)
Yeah.
Jag (41:11)
I'm looking at it almost as a fresh start just to reshape it if it needs it and then push it forward.
Fliss (41:14)
Hmm.
Yeah, so it's evolved over time. Is that because of the way the business is or is it more to do with your thinking around business, you think? What you want.
Jag (41:28)
I
think probably both learning as I go along ⁓ and thinking, that's a great thing. OK, yeah, well, let's do that. But I think I'm a firm believer with businesses. I'm more in the line of evolution, not revolution. ⁓ And I know revolution for some brands is an important thing. And there's some great stories of brands that have completely done it.
⁓ a 180 and gone in a different direction, fair enough. But for me and my brand, it's always evolved and often organically, sometimes it just happens rather than me forcing it. It has just become a thing and worked out really well. There's been probably plenty of times where it hasn't worked out well, but in my mind, I think, ⁓ yeah, that worked out really well because despite what some of the things I've been saying, tend to like, I prefer to look at the more optimistic, positive side of things.
So stay in business guys, whoever's listening stay in business it's great.
Fliss (42:22)
Keep going.
Yeah, think particularly for small businesses, evolving your brand over time is actually what happens because it's very tied to, even if you have a team, it's very tied to you as a person. So that natural evolution is going to happen. I think not being scared to evolve it and go with the change.
Jag (42:43)
Yeah.
Yeah, think, well, fear is probably one of the biggest things that holds people back in business, because it's the fear of, what if it fails? Or what if it's not taken well? But it's the fear of failure. And if you don't fail, you won't succeed. You have to, I don't know, I'm just going to come up with a figure off the top of my head. You have to fail three times every time in order to get a success. I don't know, I just made that up. But it feels like, you know, there have to be a number of...
Fliss (42:53)
Hmm.
Jag (43:21)
things that you get wrong to get that thing right. You might see that as a little bit negative, but ⁓ if you just keep pushing for that goal, the success will eventually come because I don't know anyone that gets it right first time, every time. It's just not real.
Fliss (43:39)
Yeah,
yeah. And I always think, I'm like, when I find I'm digging into failure with people, what do you mean by fail? You know, ⁓ I don't post on social media because I don't want to fail. What do mean by that? nobody will see it. Well, that does matter because no one's seen it. Doesn't really matter. So when you dig into what people mean by failure, actually, you can really unpick and go, actually, that wouldn't matter.
Jag (43:58)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and that's a mindset thing on how you're actually looking at it. And it's so interesting how your own problems ⁓ are probably 10 times bigger in your mind when really from looking from the outside in, they're actually not that big of a problem. Going back to what we're saying about, is it going to be significant in five years time? Yes or no?
And in all honesty, I've done this recently. I was thinking, I've got all these things to do. We're about to retweak all our messaging and whatnot. I've got so many things to do. And I really wound myself up and I thought, you know what? I do this with clients and I calm them down and I say, okay, no, this is good. We're going that way. And I had to have a word with myself and just say, this problem feels like a big problem to me. But actually, you know what? It's not. Just sort yourself out, Jag, and just take it one day at a time, step by step, and it'll work out.
and it always does.
Fliss (44:57)
Yeah,
yeah, I think I think we get scared of things when we get very emotionally involved, it? And then if you can somehow try and remove that emotion or look at it in a different way, it feels a lot smaller. Have you actually do you think you've actually ever failed in business? Like absolutely failed because you're still in business. So I'd say no.
Jag (45:03)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
I suppose overall the answer is the success is higher than the failure. We're still in business. I mean, it depends, like you say, you can class not winning a client in a pitch as a failure. You can class losing a team member, a really good team member as a failure. can class. It just depends on what you class as a failure. But then things happen.
without getting too philosophical. Sometimes things happen for a reason. When one door closes, another one opens. And I can think of examples. There's been times in the past where something bad happens, and actually it leads onto a great thing, which would never have happened, have that bad thing have never happened in the past. there's always a positive on everything. You've just got to go back to reflect on stuff and trace it back. Yeah.
Fliss (46:11)
Yeah, yeah.
Well, yeah, on that, ⁓ you very much could class me burning out as a failure, a failure to look after myself, I'm gonna say, in business. But actually, that allowed me, I stepped back and I rethought about things and rebuilding my business and doing this would never have happened if I hadn't have gone, okay, that was not great.
Jag (46:32)
Yeah!
There you go.
Fliss (46:37)
And so
Jag (46:37)
Yeah.
Fliss (46:38)
it's a positive thing. I mean, I'm never going to let it happen again. Yeah.
Jag (46:43)
Yeah, and you know, I
think that's just a really important, you know, it's obviously wasn't a nice thing, but it was just an important thing that you learned from. I mean, I'm no wine connoisseur, but you will only know what an amazing wine tastes like when you've had the, when you've drank a bottle of Blue Nun, you know, when you've had the really cheap stuff. Is it still a thing? don't even know if it's still a thing.
Fliss (46:59)
Hey, don't knock the blue nun, Is it still a thing?
Yeah, probably, yeah.
Jag (47:09)
Yeah, you have to experience the bad to know what the good is. you know, it's obvious, of course, we don't want bad things to happen, but it happens. And sometimes we don't make it happen on purpose. It happens. And as long as you grow from it, I think, then that's that's a positive. And you've just demonstrated that. So well done.
Fliss (47:15)
Yeah.
Thank you, Jag. I really appreciate that. I've really take like, my God. It's so good. I always find our chats refreshing because it's really, find that I learn so much from you because of your wise knowledge. But actually what I learned early on from us catching up was actually we're so similar, even though you've got years more experience, you know.
Jag (47:30)
You're welcome.
Fliss (47:54)
similar challenges or have been through similar challenges at different stages and I think it's about just always going with it and I just chatting today that's something I've really picked up on like that agility and always kind of kind of reflecting and learning and go yeah now that that happened or this is going on maybe I could try this I've really picked that up from chatting to you today.
Jag (48:22)
Thank you. Yeah, it's
yeah, it's that's it. It's just constant learning. That's what it comes down to and likewise for me, you know, we had a chat when I left the office ⁓ and I thought I was saying to you, my god, I've got to do all these things and I need to do that. I don't want to do this and and you did a classic Fliss and you said, you know what, just take it a step at a time. Just worry about that thing in three months time. Just focus on this. And I thought you're absolutely right. What am I worried about? And it takes.
someone to say that to you sometimes, just to remind you. You almost gave me permission to say, you know what, just focus on this, what are doing, what are doing man? And I was like, yeah, what am I doing? And it was brilliant, so thank you for that.
Fliss (48:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, we don't give ourselves permission, so find somebody to give you the permission. Yeah, yes, yeah, it's a big one. Yeah, it is. So I'd love to, I'd love, before we wrap up, I'd love to actually know what's something you wish more newer business owners knew about running a business.
Jag (49:10)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It is.
⁓ Something I wish newer business owners knew about running a business. think number one is self-belief, always believe in yourself. You've set up the business because you have this idea and this vision and just make sure you try and get that as crisp as possible in your mind and that isn't always easy because
It's like a flywheel. takes a lot of energy to get that flywheel spinning. But once it's spinning, it'll get there. And for some people, it might take a year. It might take two years. It might take longer. We naturally lean towards looking at these success stories that are there, like, my god, this person's making six figures in six months. And all he did was do this thing and mow lawns or whatever. And the truth is not true. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. ⁓
Fliss (50:19)
Not true.
Jag (50:24)
They might be true. They might be one in a million. But the reality is, is after this amount of time of working with businesses, I don't think I've come across any overnight successes. It's it's something that you've got to really believe in yourself and you've got to give it grit and determination. If you're not going to be if you're not going to keep chipping away at a pace that works for you, then it's not going to happen. So just just keep punching.
Just when you, if you fall down, just get back up, dust yourself off and keep going.
Fliss (50:55)
Have a little cry in them for pick yourself back up. Yeah Let it all out guys. Jag, we could talk for so long about this. Thank you for chatting to me today. I've really enjoyed it and as always taking a lot away from it. Which ⁓ yeah, I am a big reflecter
Jag (50:58)
Have a little, yeah, cry yourself to sleep a few times. Yeah.
We could.
Fliss (51:22)
I love to reflect on things so you've said so many things that I'm going to take away and think how can I you know do more of this embracing failure or whatever so thank you. I would love to ask you two questions before we finish so in your experience what do you think the biggest barrier is to somebody doing things their way?
Jag (51:33)
Yeah, yeah. No problem, thank you.
Okay.
In my experience, what is the biggest barrier to someone doing things their way? I think I might have answered that already. It's the biggest barrier is yourself. And that's it. It's the self-belief. It's, know, only you are stopping yourself from that thing happening. There are obviously, you know, resource restrictions. There might be money or availability and time. know, time and money are the biggest resource restrictions.
Fliss (51:57)
you
Mm-hmm.
Jag (52:19)
It is the belief. Anyone that you look at in business, whether it's your Stephen Bartlett's or whoever, these guys are driven. They have belief and they go and they won't have started with this massive sense of self belief. They've gone through a huge journey of learning as they've gone along, but they're driven. it's just, I think, yeah, just it's probably your biggest barrier is you, really.
Fliss (52:46)
Yeah, when I see with my clients, you know, going through a process and as soon as they start seeing the real value they bring to people and what they can actually do, that's when I massively see the difference in like, them going, yeah, my God, I am amazing. And they start putting themselves out there. So it can like really believe in yourself and do so much, propel you on.
Jag (53:03)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It feels
so cliche to say, but it is so true. It really is true.
Fliss (53:12)
Yeah, yeah, and I think you've got to know yourself to believe in yourself as well, haven't you?
Jag (53:17)
Yeah,
yeah, very true.
Fliss (53:19)
Yeah, so you've got to give a different answer to this question, I'm afraid. What's one thing that's helped you to do your thing?
Jag (53:24)
no, okay.
No, I have to give a different answer. The one thing that's helped me to do my thing. ⁓ I ⁓ can be quite an impulsive person. act on impulse. When I'm excited about something, it'll happen. So I think it's when I'm following something that I'm excited about. And I love creating. I love developing.
I love developing people. I love that buzz of seeing the delight on a client's face when you've delivered something and it's produced a result for them. So I think following the thing that I'm passionate about is really the thing that's kind of gone with me. on the flip side, because the whole variety of services, there are things that I'm not so passionate about. not really that, I don't love admin that much, but it can become very admin heavy as you grow. And I realize I'm getting bogged down with this admin stuff.
really not enjoying this so I found ways to get around that give it to someone else basically delegate or you know minimize become more efficient or outsource or whatever and do you know make sure I'm doing enough of the stuff that I love to stay in love with being in business and I think that is so important there's such a you know you we talked about emotional decisions earlier on there's emotional and rational decision-making you've got to keep it tapped into the
emotion, the positive emotion, because as soon as that goes that's when it starts ⁓ starts dwindling.
Fliss (55:02)
easy to go down a rabbit hole of, you know, everyone says I should be doing this or I'll do this and that's more of a rational decision isn't it? I think that is an amazing place to wrap up our chat today, like keep the passion. Thanks Jag. So if anybody else wants to learn all of your wise, wiseness of years in business, wiseness that's a word.
Jag (55:09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Brilliant.
Fliss (55:30)
⁓ Where can people find you?
Jag (55:32)
You can find us on our website, is ⁓ xpandmarketing.co.uk. There's no E at the beginning, it's just spelled with an X. And from there, you can find us on our social media. So I would love to connect with you on LinkedIn.
Thanks Fliss, I've really enjoyed this.
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