“Don’t become the world's worst boss to yourself” with Jo Hooper
Do your thing · Episode 4 · Hosted by Fliss Lee
How to set better boundaries, prevent burnout and build a business that works for you
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Jo Hooper’s Me First Month found its way to me at exactly the right time.
I’d spent about six months taking things slowly after burning out and doing a lot of work to understand how I’d got there.
Me First Month helped me take the next step: actually putting myself first in my business and starting to set some proper boundaries around how I wanted to work.
So I was chuffed to get Jo on the podcast and dig into the thinking behind it.
Jo is the founder of Get Wildly Free, a business coach and creator of the Me First Method. After spending 10 years working in communications and experiencing two breakdowns, she left corporate life and eventually built a business around helping other founders and freelancers work in a way that supports the life they want.
We talk about the beliefs many of us bring into self-employment about hard work, productivity and putting other people first – and how difficult it can be to unlearn them.
Jo shares how the Me First Method helps you turn those new beliefs into actual changes in your business, from deciding how much you want to work and setting clearer boundaries, to looking at your offers, capacity and pricing.
We also talk about why boundaries are good for your customers as well as you, why rest alone doesn't fix burnout, and giving yourself permission to ignore the things you think you ‘should’ be doing and build a business that works for you instead.
What you’ll learn in this episode
How beliefs about hard work, productivity and putting other people first can shape the way you run your business
How the Me First Method can help you make practical changes to your boundaries, capacity and ways of working
Why preventing burnout means changing the things that are burning you out, not simply taking more time off
Listen to the episode
Find it on your chosen podcast player here.
About Jo Hooper
Jo Hooper is the founder of Get Wildly Free and creator of the Me First Method. She helps founders, freelancers and small business owners build businesses that support their mental health and the lives they want to live.
Through her coaching and programmes, Jo helps people question their beliefs about work and make practical changes to the way their businesses are structured, so work doesn't have to take over everything else.
Episode links
Follow Jo on Instagram:@getwildlyfree
Mentioned in this episode
Jo’s Shit List
If you know something in your business isn't working but don't know where to start, Jo recommends making what she calls a ‘Shit List’.
Write down everything in your business that makes you grimace, procrastinate or keep pushing it to the bottom of your list.
Then look at:
What could be delegated or automated?
What could you stop doing without it having much impact?
What's left that genuinely needs to change?
Jo uses what's left as a starting point for looking at things like your capacity, offers, boundaries and pricing.
How to Think More Effectively
I mention How to Think More Effectively by The School of Life when we talk about why time away from work matters and how stepping away can give your brain the space it needs for thinking and creative ideas.
Find How to Think More Effectively
Untamed by Glennon Doyle
Jo mentions Untamed during our conversation about how deeply ingrained beliefs can make setting boundaries and putting yourself first feel uncomfortable.
You might also like
If Jo's thoughts on capacity and building a business that supports you resonate, listen to my conversation with Morín Glimmer about working with your energy, noticing your own patterns and planning around your capacity.
Support the podcast
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Want to be a guest?
Got a story or experience that could help other founders, freelancers or creative folk do things their own way?You can pitch to be a guest on Do your thing here.
Chapters
00:00 – Meet Jo Hooper and Get Wildly Free
02:17 – When Jo realised the way she was working had to change
04:58 – Unlearning what success and hard work are supposed to look like
10:04 – Choosing to work in a way that works for you
11:27 – How Me First Month helped me after burnout
12:11 – What is the Me First Method?
13:58 – Changing your beliefs about work
15:07 – Why setting boundaries can feel so uncomfortable
18:53 – Rest doesn't fix burnout
19:32 – Why you don't have to be productive all the time
23:25 – The Shit List: finding what isn't working in your business
24:03 – Turning new beliefs into changes in your business
27:21 – Realising that nobody else will set your boundaries for you
28:02 – Why boundaries are good for your customers too
31:00 – How Jo's beliefs show up in the Get Wildly Free brand
34:32 – Challenging the idea that work has to be hard
39:09 – Why it's easier to let yourself down than other people
41:39 – Why Jo thinks ‘should’ is bollocks
43:08 – Knowing when your brand no longer fits your business
45:19 – What stops us doing things our own way?
47:09 – Life is too short to spend it working all the time
Transcript
Fliss (00:01)
Hi Jo, I am so chuffed to be talking to you today. ⁓ I'd love to ⁓ hear a bit about you. How did you get to where you are today? How did you end up doing what you do now?
Jo (00:07)
Bye!
⁓ So, hi, thanks for having me. ⁓ So today I'm currently surrounded by packing boxes, I probably by the time this comes out will be in a new space. ⁓ But how I got to where I am professionally, if that's a word that we wanna use, so I, well, first of all, when I first was thinking about getting a job, I wanted to work in politics.
Fliss (00:31)
Exciting.
Jo (00:47)
And I found out very quickly at that point in time, I graduated in 2008, that to work in politics, you had to work for free for an MP for at least a year. And I just didn't, A, I couldn't afford to do that. Like I didn't live in London, I couldn't afford to just not earn for a year. And B, I didn't want to work within a system that like perpetuated the fact that only rich people could work in it. And so,
I looked into other things and I fell into PR and communications and spent 10 years working myself into two breakdowns in the communications industry. And I like hit my goal of being a head of comms by the time I was 30, but by the time I was 31, I'd had two mental health crises. And so I engineered my own redundancy and set up my business in 2019. And it was initially...
Fliss (01:24)
Wow.
Jo (01:42)
designed to help companies support their people's mental health, because it was a gap in the market that I noticed when I was really struggling. And then over time, I've started working more and more with people who run their own businesses. And now I help people run their own businesses in a way that actually gives them the life that they want. And, you know, one happy byproduct of that is that it helps them to stay mentally healthy. But largely, it's about helping people live the lives that they want.
and not become the world's worst boss to themselves.
Fliss (02:17)
as we often do. Wow, so your experiences obviously led you to running the business that you do. When did it first hit you that something needed to change in your first life, first career? Yeah.
Jo (02:36)
in my corporate career.
I think it probably wasn't until I came back to work after my second breakdown. So the first one, I didn't take much time off. I didn't go on meds. I did get therapy. I did take a little bit of time off. Some things got shuffled around at work. But the second one, I was like really, really, really ill and I got signed off for like three or four months. And then I did a phased return. I just realized that I could not live and work.
that way anymore, like it wasn't possible for me to work in the way that I felt like I needed to, incorporate and be sane and healthy. And so almost immediately after I came back to work in my phase return, I was like, thinking about what else I could do. But I never wanted to be self-employed before that, actively didn't want to be self-employed.
⁓ But yeah, that kind of turned it all on its head for me really.
Fliss (03:44)
What was it that made you think, I'm going to go into self-employment then?
Jo (03:49)
I think it was initially, it was the seeing that the organization that I worked for wanted to do the right thing for me and was very well intentioned, but it didn't know what the right thing was and they didn't know what to do. And like some of the actions that they were taking that were very well intentioned were actually making the situation worse. And so I saw like an obvious gap in the market that I knew I could fill.
And I think it was the fact that I had this idea that I knew was good made me think and also also the fact that I was Absolutely done in and I was like fuck it like I might as well give it a whirl I knew I was gonna be made redundant and that I'd have a redundancy package that would like help me help see me through until If I could get the business to work See I think part of it was like
not desperation but part of it was like I've got to give something else a go and part of it was hello I can see an idea here.
Fliss (04:58)
Yeah, we often get our best ideas from our worst moments, don't we? I've had loads of them. So I guess what, from then until now, what's changed about how you think about, like, what you believe about work or success?
Jo (05:02)
my god, yes!
⁓ everything. Yeah. When I was in corporate, I was your classic yes woman. Like I really wanted, I was really ambitious. I am really ambitious, but I was really ambitious in the way that I, the way that I worked that was then reinforced by promotions, pay rises, positive feedback was just to overwork all the time and to take on everything and say yes to everything and be really good. And
Fliss (05:20)
Hehehehehe ⁓
Hmm.
Jo (05:48)
take on the burden than my managers, like manage upwards. And so, yeah, I'd be like getting into work at like seven in the morning and leaving at eight at night. And I would be...
Constantly answering my phone and answering emails in the evenings and at the weekends and on holiday. ⁓ I think I might have lost each other.
Fliss (06:38)
You
Jo (07:35)
Hi, I'm sorry.
Fliss (07:37)
It's fine. When you kind of stopped I was like, is that me? was like, it's fine. We'll just cut that out. Maybe I'll leave that there. Don't worry, it happens. I'm trying to think about my question while I go back to that question. Oh yeah.
Jo (07:39)
Rural Wi-Fi.
I'm really sorry.
I'm really sorry. Yeah, fingers crossed we will continue now.
I think it was like
what changed you about what you think about work. Sorry. I like...
Fliss (08:05)
What did I, what's yours? Yeah.
Let's go, let
me have... How long were you talking before you realised you'd cut off? The challenge now is remembering what you were on about. Right, okay, I'll ask that question again. So, I guess from where to... Let me, sorry, go. So I guess now...
Jo (08:16)
fucking ages. Ages.
Very true. ⁓
Fliss (08:40)
What the hell is a bloody question place? I guess I'd love to know ⁓ what's changed in what you believe about work and success from then until now,
Jo (08:54)
Literally everything. When I was in corporate, I basically just believed that had to work myself into the ground to get ahead and to progress and to reach my goals and ambitions because that was how I'd worked and how I'd been rewarded, how I'd been promoted, got pay rises, got new jobs, got positive feedback. And so the behavior, the like...
unhealthy behavior that I was displaying was positively reinforced by the organizations I worked for. And now I know that that's not true. Like in my business, I am a better coach, I'm more creative, I'm more like focused and excited when my business is easy and I don't have to work myself into the ground and I don't want to. And I know that I can't because I got so unwell.
I can't work myself into the ground because that, I just can't, like that's not healthy for me and it actively makes me ill. So yeah, everything, everything has changed.
Fliss (10:04)
Everything.
I mean, I totally get that because I have lot of the same beliefs, you know. ⁓ I think it's kind of drummed into you from a very young age ⁓ in our society. I guess what kind of, ⁓ what helps you figure out your way of doing things then?
Jo (10:15)
Yeah.
Again, at the beginning it was necessity. I was so ill for so long that I literally couldn't leave the house. I couldn't make decisions. I couldn't cook for myself. I could barely brush my teeth. I had to find a way of working that didn't make me ill. So it was necessity at the start. And now it's choice. I choose to...
work in a way that feels good for me. I choose to only have two client calls a day, two days a week. I choose to just have two main offers. I choose to have boundaries and offers and prices and ways of working that work for me and tell people about them because that's how I can live the life that I want, which is not all about work. And that's a choice I get to make and it's a choice that we all get to make, but often we don't recognize.
that that choice is available to us.
Fliss (11:27)
Yes, yes. kind of, I came across you quite a while ago, but then last year when I was recovering from my burnout, I discovered you're me first month. And that completely, that really came to me at a really, great time. I'd done a bit of therapy around like my stress and everything. And I was at a point where I...
Jo (11:50)
Mm.
Fliss (11:57)
needed to set out my own boundaries. And it really helped to transform things, I've got to say, understanding how to put myself first. So I would love to dig into that a little bit more with you today, because I know that I have only touched the surface, Jo, and I would really love to. I'd really love to learn more about it. So please talk to me more about me first, like your me first method. Tell me everything about it, please.
Jo (12:11)
Yeah.
Huh!
Yeah.
Well, it's very simple. It feels very grandiose to call it a method, although I have actually developed it into a method. But the premise is put yourself first in every decision in your business. Because why the hell not? Because constantly putting other people first, squeezing people in, saying yes to a call when you don't really have time, adding another client, reducing that price, like constantly putting other people first.
just drains the life out of you, makes your business harder, makes you have to work harder, which works you into the ground, which means that your business is not sustainable. And it sure as heck isn't scalable because we can't be fitting everyone in if we want to be growing our businesses because we just will not have the time. So it's as simple as putting yourself first in every decision in your business. And...
The method goes through like beliefs, decisions and actions. So what are the beliefs that we need to shift and change? Almost all of which are fed to us by patriarchy, capitalism, ableism, et cetera. What are the beliefs we need to shift to allow you to do that? What are the decisions we need to make to allow you to do that about your offers, your prices, your boundaries, the way you work, what you say yes to, what you say no to, and what are the actions you need to take to allow you to do that? Saying no, being clear about
how and when you work and who you work with and having kind of systems in place that make that easy for you to do that. So yeah, it's kind of simple, but really hard to do. Yeah, yeah.
Fliss (13:58)
Simple, but in practical terms it's difficult. am
I right in saying that one of the highest parts of that is shifting your beliefs?
Jo (14:09)
I think so because a lot of the beliefs that I think people hold or I've seen that people hold over the last six years and working with hundreds of people are so deeply entrenched we see them as truth that work has to be hard. That if it's not hard it's not worthy or valuable. That your value is found in your time. That you must put other people first to be a good human edit. They don't say that about men, it's just about women. To be a good woman.
you need to put other people first and be selfless. And these are just, these are such deeply entrenched beliefs and such powerfully taught beliefs by the system and society that we live in that we kind of just see them as, well, that's just the way it is. But it's not. In your business, you get to say, no, I don't want to put everyone else first and work myself into the ground. No, I don't want to make work hard. And that's okay. And it's still valuable and it's still powerful.
Fliss (15:07)
Yeah, it, it, it, oh my god. It's when I started to do this, I felt, I felt so anxious. Like I remember going to basically say, this is how I want to work to a client. This is how I work, not want to work, I work. I felt so anxious going to have that conversation. Just because I just wasn't used to it, I realized that it was that.
Jo (15:18)
Mmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Mmm.
Fliss (15:35)
I'm not used to doing this and I think they might like say no to me. But I still went ahead and did it and it felt great after I'd done it. But in the past I think that anxiety has always stopped me from doing it because I thought they're not going to be happy with me or they're not going to want to work with me or I shouldn't be doing this. Which is crazy really.
Jo (15:41)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is, but, like there's a quote from Glennon Doyle's book Untamed which just encapsulates that experience that you had which is the end goal of any system of oppression is to get the oppressed to oppress themselves. And so what the patriarchy has done is tell us that we can't be safe or we can't be good if we're saying, this is how I work, that is not how I work. And so we stop ourselves from doing that.
we oppress ourselves into acting in the way that the patriarchy wants us to. Because these beliefs that we kind of think of as truths are so tied up in our brains assessment of whether we're safe. So like any humans, but particularly women over millennia, to be safe, we need to be accepted into a group, need to be accepted by society. Otherwise we might be
shunned, sent out the village, won't have access to food, or we might be burnt as witches. We've been bred over millennia to feel that to be safe we need to be accepted by the group. And to do that, we need to be small, pliant, kind, nurturing, and never put ourselves first. And so when I work with people, I say to them, there's nothing to be guilty about or feel weird about. Yes, you will feel anxious. This will feel hard.
because you're trying to teach your brain that you can put yourself first and be safe. And the only way to do that is to do it and give yourself the evidence that is possible.
Fliss (17:37)
Yeah, so it's almost like we've been taught that if we put ourselves first, won't, people will not be happy with us. ⁓ And it's amazing that when you start doing the opposite, people are still just as happy with you, if not more, because you're actually saying what you need and how you're going to work. that's, that's like being open and honest. Yay. Woo. Which, but, but so many of us, ⁓ I've, you know, I've had lots of
Jo (17:44)
Yeah, we'll be in danger. Yeah.
Yeah.
Fliss (18:06)
clients who kind of do struggle with the, you know, in practical terms actually going, ⁓ you know, I don't do calls on a Monday. It feels so difficult to do that. But actually when you do that, nobody's bothered. We're all running our own businesses. A lot of us are working with people in that situation and it's like, yeah, great, fine.
Jo (18:16)
Mm-hmm.
No. Yeah.
Yeah. And again, like when you start doing that, the people who see you doing it realize that they can do it for themselves as well. So then we all start to have clearer boundaries and we all start to have time for our actual lives and we all start to be a bit happier and have businesses that are more energetically, financially, healthily sustainable.
Fliss (18:53)
Hmm. Yeah, it's, I never want to burn out again, but I got into a cycle of ⁓ burning out, not badly, but I get to the end of every year and I'd just be absolutely exhausted and I never learn. I'm just like, it'll be different next year. It'll be different next year. It'll be different next year. And now I'm trying to get to a point where I'm still doing it.
Jo (19:09)
Yeah.
Fliss (19:17)
where my business is not going to allow myself to do that and I am starting to see myself go, oh, I'm not feeling well, have a slower day or a happy afternoon off or something. And it does make a difference. And my, I'd say my productivity is the same, if not better.
Jo (19:32)
Yeah. And also like that. So two things. One.
I say this with love, rest doesn't fix burnout. Changing the things that burn you out fixes burnout. And so sometimes often you do need rest before you can start doing that. But that's part of what I do is help people to recognize, okay, what is it that's not working here? And how do we change it to make it work? And how do we give you the space to allow you to do that? But also just picking up on your last point there about productivity.
Fliss (19:43)
No, no, yes.
Jo (20:08)
Like that's another truth that capitalism has fed us is that to be valuable, we must be constantly productive. that like ⁓ time spent unproductively is not good, is not valuable, is not allowed, is shameful. ⁓ And that's just because that's what capitalism wants is for us to keep working, keep producing, keep buying to keep the wheels of the system turning. But you don't have to be productive all the time. It's fine.
Fliss (20:38)
No, and actually I've got a, there's a book by the School of Life called How to Think More Effectively and it's actual science that when your brain switches off, your brain does thinking in the background and that's when your creative ideas are chucked out, you know, when you're washing up and you're, that's the thing. You actually need that time, that break, that rest, that time away from work to...
Jo (20:42)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Fliss (21:05)
be more creative and have those ideas because if you're constantly working you're not allowing yourself that time to actually your brain to actually do that which I find absolutely fascinating.
Jo (21:11)
Yeah.
Yeah. And what we do when we get into that constant state of doing productivity, chasing, hustling, whatever, is we're keeping our body, our brains, our nervous system in this heightened state of ⁓ basically we have a constant flood of cortisol and adrenaline in our systems, which keeps us going, keeps us going, keeps us going, keeps us going. And that's why when we stop, we have a crash.
because our bodies are not meant to exist with that much cortisol and adrenaline in it all the time. We're meant to see spikes that drop and not be operating at this super high level all the time. And so that's why often when people feel that they're approaching burnout and they take a break or they've been like really busy and they take a holiday, why we get ill? And why we just feel like we need to be in bed all the time because our bodies are like, chemicals in our bodies are readjusting.
⁓ And that's not how our bodies are meant to operate all the time. It's why we get loads of headaches, get digestion problems, or we get random aches and pains. All of those are linked to high cortisol and high adrenaline, which is what comes from being stressed all the time.
Fliss (22:29)
Yeah, so many people get ill when they go on holiday, don't they? And I guess that's a red flag. Yeah, yeah. Part of me kind of putting myself first was really, I started mindfulness and part of that was to kind of really understand my body, listen to my body and I started to like notice that.
Jo (22:33)
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Should have gone on holiday like three months ago.
Hmm.
Fliss (22:56)
not that hadn't noticed the aches and pains before. It's like listening to the aches and pains, going, what's my brother trying to say? I think there's a part of that like ignoring the situation. So once you've tackled the beliefs, how do you then start to change things? If there's anything that people are kind of thinking, ⁓ this is me who are listening to this today,
Jo (23:00)
Hahaha!
yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Fliss (23:25)
How do you even start changing things? What's the first, what would you say the first step would be to tackling them beliefs and changing?
Jo (23:28)
Mmm. ⁓
So,
the thing that I would say to do first, which very handily I've just developed a freebie on because I got asked this question on a podcast before and I was like, I really should have a free resource for people to help them with this, is do something that's called the shit list. And it's very simple. And you basically just write a list of everything in your business that makes you be like, ugh, or grimace, or procrastinate, or let it fall to the bottom of the list.
Fliss (23:43)
Uhhhh...
Jo (24:03)
And then you go down that list with one highlighter looking at what can be delegated, automated, done by anyone other than you, and then go down the list with another highlighter and look at what would not have a big impact if you didn't do it. Like that's just busy work that can be ditched. And then the stuff that's left is the stuff that you need to change. And it might be like that client who you just can't bear opening an email from, or it might be your group program that
You you just feel like, God, I never wanna go in there, because I don't know what I'm gonna find, or it might be responding to your DMs, because people are like firing you questions all the time. And those things give us kind of a roadmap of what needs to change. And so in my Me First method and in my accelerator program, we work through like, okay, how do you want to work? How often do you want to work? How much do you want to work? That gives us an idea of your healthy capacity.
then we look at what it is you want to do. That gives us an idea of your offers. Then we think about, okay, how do you want to do that? How is a way that you can do that with less, that requires less from you? That gives us an idea of your boundaries. Okay, how many clients or projects can you work on at one time within your healthy capacity? That gives us an idea of your pricing. And so we work through step by step.
how your business is structured and how your business runs to make it easier and to make it not make you grimace and groan and feel like you don't want to do it all the time because that shit list is a good indication of what's not working at the moment. yes, I get people to start with beliefs, but I also want them to be taking action at the same time because taking action based on a new belief reinforces that new belief. So if my new belief is I'm allowed to make work easy.
and then I put some boundaries in place in my program that makes my program easier to deliver and people are like just as happy about it, they're loving it, it feels good to me, it feels good to them, then that action shows my brain that that belief, it's okay to make work easier, is true. So it's like belief catalyzes action, action catalyzes belief. But yes, I do have a free resource to help you do the shit list and figure out what you don't wanna be doing, so I can send you a link to that.
Fliss (26:26)
That sounds good, I'll pop that in the show notes for anyone who's interested in that. I think it's that, it's all very well to say, ⁓ I'm not going to run my business this way, I don't believe this anymore. But you're right, how are you going to change that? Because if you don't, you can say something and think it, but unless you change your actions, nothing's ever going to change. You're just going to keep working in the way you've always worked, aren't you?
Jo (26:52)
Yeah, yeah, because it's just so ingrained in us to work in that way, to constantly be working or thinking about work, to say yes to everyone, everything, to put our clients first by squeezing them in or letting them, you know, do 10 rounds of amends instead of two. Like, it's just so ingrained in us because that's what we're taught by society and by corporate life that work should be. But it doesn't have to be that
Fliss (27:21)
doesn't. I had a realisation that as a 22 year old going into the world of work and working 12 hour days I assumed my employers would almost tell me to go home and do the boundary stuff for me and I had a realising last year at the age of 38 ⁓ I was meant to set those boundaries out.
Jo (27:41)
Yeah.
Hehehehehe
Fliss (27:51)
They were never going to do that for me. I mean, a good, you know, you should tell your team to go home. But I was like, ⁓ that's on me to do that. Wow.
Jo (28:02)
Yeah
Yeah, it is like
now you look back on it or now I look back on it. It's like, okay, they were never gonna tell me to go home because they benefited from me being there all the time and working all the time. And also like it's that wasn't mal intentioned by my bosses or my managers because they were in the same situation as well. And often I worked in communications which is a predominantly female industry. So often my managers, my bosses were women who again were grappling with the same things I was grappling with.
that they have to work harder or be more masculine or prove themselves more than men to get ahead in the industry or in the workplace. And so they were just doing the same things that I was doing. And yeah, I think it's so much harder in corporate in an employed role to set boundaries and be like, no, I'm leaving at half five, bye. But when you run your own business,
people are commissioning you as a business to do work for them or with them. And so you can say, this is how I work, this is how it will work when we are doing this piece of work together, this is what you can expect, this is when the calls are, this is how we'll keep in touch, this is when you can expect to hear from me. And that's totally accepted and acceptable. And it gives clarity, like boundaries give clarity to people. Like in my group program, they know that Wednesdays is my coaching day. So...
They can post in that area of the group anytime they want, but on Wednesdays I will go in there and I will respond to everyone and we'll go through issues and work things out together and give feedback and advice. But if I didn't stick to those boundaries, and sometimes on a Monday I was in there, and sometimes on a Friday, they'd have no idea what they could expect from me. But if I set the boundary and stick to it, then people are clear about what they can expect.
Fliss (29:58)
Yeah, that is so interesting, isn't it? Boundaries benefit not just you, but everyone else as well, because everybody knows where they're at. Yeah, I think that's something that I've, yeah, I definitely do that with my clients, but that's something that's just stood out to me that I'm going to kind of think about a little bit more, how I can do that even more to help my clients, because that is fascinating.
Jo (30:04)
Yeah?
I'm interested in your thinking, so keep me posted please.
Fliss (30:30)
Yeah, yeah,
because I set out set times, but it's saying you, you can, you will hear back from me. That, that whole group program thing that you just described, amazing. Everyone knows that on a Wednesday afternoon, evening, they can go in and look at their feedback. Everyone knows where they're at. Yeah, I think that's really, really good. I am really interested in how your approach, obviously I'm going to be interested in this, how your approach shows up in your brand, Like how...
Jo (30:39)
Mm.
Yeah.
Fliss (31:00)
I guess like your tone of voice and everything. does your, how do you think your beliefs and your approach thread through into how you put yourself out?
Jo (31:11)
Well, I think so when I first started my business, I was very, very open about the fact that I was starting my business off the back of two breakdowns and engineering my own redundancy. And it was all about supporting my mental health. And that is something that stayed with me throughout my six and a half years and will continue to is like radical honesty. Like I am always on Instagram stories in my pajamas. I'm always sharing like
the fact that I'm getting into bed at two o'clock on a Tuesday afternoon and how I do that while running a business that works for me and works for my clients. So like, yeah, radical honesty. ⁓ And I think over the years as well, I've recognized that my sort of superpowers are being able to like pick out the golden threads in the madness. So like clients come to me and they're like,
It's all a mess. And I'm like, well, actually what I'm hearing is this thing, this thing, and this thing are like the root causes of all of that mess. And so I really try and share advice and content that does that too. So I'm thinking about an email I sent last week that was about a friend of mine who'd been, she called it lightly trolled.
⁓ on a piece of content that was a day in the life of her, she's graphic designer, her name's Liz Mosley if you wanna check her out, and how all the comments, like 90 % of the comments were from people going, so didn't do any fucking work then? that looks like a right DOS day. ⁓ how do you get by doing this? who picked your kids up? You forgot to pick them up. And so like, take that, in the email, I like shared a bit about that and some of my responses because I responded to everyone.
and reminded them that work doesn't have to be hard and you can have a successful business and you know go out for lunch or maybe the kids are their father who knows or another parent or co-carer. So I kind of presented this mess and then was like this is what's happening here. People believe that work has to be hard and not just it has to be hard but that it's shameful if it's easy and so I try and yeah like translate the mess.
into clarity, I guess. And I'm working with my friend Liz on my visual branding at the moment. And she said that a word that she associates with my brand that I absolutely agree with is irreverent. so I hope I'm not, well, I'm not a kind of, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a scholar, I'm not a clinician, I'm not a neuroscientist, although, oh my God, I would have a lovely time doing research about that.
So I present things in the way that I would speak, so honest, plain spoken, poking fun, normally at myself. And so yeah, not taking things too seriously, but presenting them in an hopefully easy to understand and easy to access way. But yeah, primarily it's just like being brutally honest about who I am and what I think.
Fliss (34:32)
But
you've just said about it, people have this ⁓ idea that work is shameful if it's easy. And I think in your brand, that honesty is trying to change people's perceptions. We've all got this ingrained into us from school, work hard, get your grades.
Jo (34:41)
Mm. Mm.
Yeah.
Fliss (35:01)
good if you are high achieving type thing. it's that kind of, yeah, I think putting your brand out there in your honest way is trying to change people's perceptions as well.
Jo (35:04)
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. That's really good point. Yeah, absolutely one that feels true to me is that, in the honesty, you can show that received wisdom isn't true. Like, I can take a four-day weekend every week if I want. I could just work a few hours on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday because I've set my business up to allow for that and because I believe that it's possible and I've showed myself it's possible and now I want to show other people it's possible.
Fliss (35:43)
I mean, I've got honest in my bloody business name and when I'm honest about doing running a business, what's more difficult, people love it because they feel it, they understand it, they can put themselves in it. So I think we need more honesty to change people's perceptions of what business is.
Jo (35:48)
Hehehehehe
Yeah.
Mm.
Yeah.
And that's it, because you don't always see it. Like, yes, you see the kind of, here's my blueprint, 10K months, working three hours a week, but you don't see the reality of that. And that's what I try to share is like, this is how my week looks. This is how I make that possible. This is how I can get in bed at two o'clock on a Tuesday. This is why I'm in my pajamas at 10 o'clock on a Wednesday, because I've structured my office in a way that means that I can.
yeah.
Fliss (36:39)
And I think you do it in a way that, you know, you've just hit on something with me. Those, those ads are, 10K in two months with on one hour a week, you know, you're, you do it in a way that's honest and real and it's not going to happen overnight. Like I know when you're talking, it's not going to happen overnight. I'm not going to be, you know, doing all these things and changing my boundaries overnight. Let's be real here guys. Yeah.
Jo (36:49)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah,
I am. That's why I my my signature program, my accelerator. It's not it's not like a two week course. It's like a six month intensive program where you get coached every single week because it's hard to change your beliefs. It's hard to do things that feel like you shouldn't be doing them. And you do need someone there being like, it's OK. Maybe you could say this instead of that. Maybe you could do this instead of that.
Fliss (37:17)
Yeah, yeah.
Jo (37:33)
because it takes time to change habits, beliefs, behaviours.
Fliss (37:38)
Yeah and as you say you can't do it on your own can you because you need that, we all need challenge and it's very easy to slip back into our old ways and sometimes you need somebody there going hang on a second, what are you doing? Why are you doing that?
Jo (37:40)
Mmm.
Yeah.
I literally, I
have this all the time with my clients. So one of my clients in my accelerator said like, okay, I'm gonna do this service because I know it's easy, I know I'm really good at it, this is how much I'm gonna charge for it. And then like the next week she came back into the group on a Wednesday and was like, okay, here's the thing. She sent me a link to the webpage and I was like, didn't we say that the price was gonna be this? Why is it now 20 % lower? And she was like, yes, I did say that, didn't I? I was like, yes, you did.
Fliss (38:17)
if
Jo (38:23)
Let's go change it. So yeah, like I have no agenda other than supporting you to make your business easier, better, more sustainable, more scalable. And sometimes you just need a little nudge to remind yourself what you said you would do to make that happen.
Fliss (38:25)
Mm.
Yeah, definitely. I have encouraged clients to put the price up because I've worked it out and gone, that's a little bit low. And then encouraged them and supported them to then go and put that price to a new potential client. And I love the moment when they come back to me and go, they didn't flinch, I could have put it higher. Because you'll always second guess yourself, you need that cheerleader behind you going, come on.
Jo (38:59)
Exactly! Yes! Exactly! Yes!
Yeah.
Fliss (39:08)
You can do it, think about yourself, not them.
Jo (39:09)
Yeah, yeah. And also
it reminds me of what you were saying about boundaries and kind of what you were thinking about when you listened to the Me First Month is the thing that I notice in everyone I work with, I would say, is it's so much easier to let ourselves down than let other people down. So that's why it's so hard to hold boundaries with ourselves. Like, okay, I'm not gonna work.
Fliss (39:30)
Yes.
Jo (39:35)
other than between 10 and three, I'm not going to take on any more clients, I'm not going to promote that service for less than this price. It's so easy to not do those things because it's easier to let ourselves down than let other people down. And we see that we might be letting other people down if we say no to them or if we say a price that maybe they can't afford or if we say that we can't fit them in. And so it's so much easier to let ourselves down unless there's someone like me going...
No, no, that's fine. No, no, we don't need to do that. So yeah, it's just, it is really hard. It's really hard to shift belief and behavior and habits on your own.
Fliss (40:16)
Yeah, it really is. I actually, what you were saying about letting yourself down is easier. I realised that letting myself down and working longer hours and exhausting myself and trying to cram things in, I was actually letting my clients down as well because I didn't have enough space and energy and time and head space for them. So it does kind of affect the work you do and the people you work with in the long term.
Jo (40:32)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mmm.
Yeah,
absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And that's why like, so for me, another thing that I do in my business, it's probably weird to most people, is I have a cancellation policy that you can cancel up to the minute that we get on the call together and even five minutes into the call. Because for me, I know if I'm having a bad patch with my mental health, like I can really want to be there for my client, but I can wake up in the morning and be like, I just haven't got
Fliss (40:46)
as well.
Jo (41:13)
the energy, the focus, my mental health is not good enough to give you what you need today, so let's reschedule. And it's the same for my clients. Like if they come on the call and they're like totally stressed out of their box, yes, sometimes what would be most beneficial is for us to work through that together. Sometimes they just need to go and take a bloody nap. And so we rearrange the call. So yeah, you don't have to do what everyone says is like the way you should do it.
Fliss (41:39)
⁓ should. Tell me about the word should.
Jo (41:45)
It's just bollocks, isn't it? Should is based on other people's expectations and other people's or, you know, society's rules about the way we should be. Why? Why should I be like that? Why? Who does it benefit for me to be like that? ⁓ everyone other than me. Okay, well, no, I'm not interested. Thank you. ⁓ Yeah, it's just a bunch of gubbins that we don't need to listen to.
Fliss (41:46)
⁓ yeah.
Yeah, I've had two sessions with my coach this year and twice he's gone. I've noticed that you're stopping yourself when you're saying should and changing the word. And I was like, and that was a big thing for me, actually, because that showed me that things were starting to change. I mean, I'm not perfect. I'm not there by any means, like it's that recognising these things and making that change.
Jo (42:20)
hahahaha
Yeah.
Mm.
Fliss (42:39)
point of saying the word chud is kind of a massive thing for me. It's me going, no, that isn't a thing.
Jo (42:39)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Exactly, it just isn't a thing. Yeah, it doesn't need to be a thing.
Fliss (42:52)
not a thing, not a thing.
Yeah. You mentioned that you're working on your band with Liz. I'm very interested to hear what led you to deciding that you needed to kind of refresh things a little.
Jo (43:08)
So I think it's like the classic thing that everyone falls into at some point, which is like, ⁓ I keep remaking slides and I'm not following my brand guidelines. I'm not wanting to use the colors. I'm not feeling good about my website. not like, I don't have any templates that feel good anymore. And what I've recognized through this work with Liz is like when I last did work on my branding,
I really based it on where I was at as a person at the time, rather than where my business was at and where I wanted it to go and what felt right for my business. ⁓ And so, yeah, the work I'm doing with Liz is really exciting. Like, it's really fun. It's more like bold and yeah, bold, plain spoken, powerful, honest. I'm really excited. I also may have bought a few things I've vented in my new brown colours, just been out there.
Fliss (44:00)
It sounds...
⁓
That is so exciting. I love doing that. It makes you feel so good, ⁓ proud of what you do. I think everyone gets to a stage in their business where it's evolved and you've shaped it into this thing that you want to feel so proud of it. And it sounds like you're at that stage now where you're going, I am here and I am to be fully here.
Jo (44:06)
Bye bye.
I know. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah,
you know what, I think you're right. Like I've done a lot of work on the structure of my business and my office this year and it all feels really solid and brilliant and banging and I want it to feel like that visually as well and like the way that my brand looked before this point doesn't like, doesn't match and fit with where it is now. So yeah, it's really fun, I'm really excited.
Fliss (44:51)
⁓ so excited, I can't wait to see it. ⁓ my God, there's so many things we could talk about. I have really enjoyed hearing about how to set some new beliefs in motion and actually take action on that. I'm gonna go and think about that, because I've done a little bit of work on that, but I think there's definitely other things that I need to.
Jo (44:53)
You
Hmm.
Fliss (45:19)
think about my beliefs and go, this is my version of that belief and how that manifests in my business and how I work. So thank you for that. I would love to know, Jo, what is, in your experience, the biggest barrier to somebody doing things their way?
Jo (45:22)
Yeah.
So I think it's what they give themselves permission to do. It's what they believe is allowable or okay for them. So I always say that my biggest challenge in my business is my own brain, like what I tell myself, the way I speak to myself. And I do think it is around belief, like what you believe is possible for you, what you believe it's okay for you to do. But the thing that that's fed by is
our patriarchal capitalist ableist society and all those beliefs that we talked about. So with that, with the fact that it is kind of those beliefs that we have, just reminding ourselves that we have those beliefs because we've been told to have them because it benefits society or the way that we live or the society that we live in. So it's not that we're doing anything wrong, that that's a barrier.
It's just that that's the way the world wants us to be and think.
Yes, you are. No one's going to tell you off for it and if they are, tell them to knob off.
Fliss (46:48)
Yes. Yes.
Oh, definitely. When I self-employed, one of my friends who had worked within an agency came to me after like a year and went, I want to talk to you about being self-employed because I think I've, I think I want to do it. And just people seeing you do it, they then think I can do that. So yeah, go out and do your thing. Jo, what is one thing that's really helped you to do your thing?
Jo (47:09)
Yeah.
Exactly, Yeah.
This is probably not the sort of answer that you're looking for. It's not like a short, snappy, easy to do thing, which is very me. I'm not very concise, as you can probably tell. But basically, two experiences. So one was having those two breakdowns at 31, and one was losing a parent at 16. My dad died when I was 16. And both of those experiences have left me
Fliss (47:26)
Anything, anything.
Jo (47:51)
knowing so deeply that life is just too fucking short to waste it working all the time or waste it following shits or waste it being miserable. If you're miserable, change something so that you aren't miserable anymore because life is too short. So yeah, so it's not like a book you can just go read.
Fliss (48:03)
Bye.
Amen.
Yeah, it's not that easy, yeah, I am totally with you there. So, and I think that's a really great place to end our chat today. I've had a wonderful time. Thank you so much for joining us. Jo where can people find you if they want to hear more about this wonderful way of working?
Jo (48:28)
Yeah.
So I'm always hanging about on Instagram. I get wildly free. So yeah, come chat to me. I would love it.
Fliss (48:39)
Fabulous, and I'm going to put your freebie, the shit list, ⁓ in the show notes for anybody who wants to do that. Thank you so much, Jo.
Jo (48:44)
Bye.
Thanks, Fliss.
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