“We need to take ourselves seriously as businesses and as business owners” with Sophie Cross
Do your thing · Episode 8 · Hosted by Fliss Lee
Starting before you're ready, building a freelance business and learning as you go
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What if you stopped waiting until you had everything figured out and just started?
Sophie Cross had the idea for Freelancer Magazine on 1 January 2020. A few months later, she'd announced it on a podcast, launched a Kickstarter and published the first issue.
She didn't have it all figured out. She just started.
Five years on, Freelancer Magazine is still going strong, and Sophie is stepping away from the editor role to focus on marketing, sales, strategy and community.
Sophie is the founder of Freelancer Magazine and self-appointed Chief Connector, and in this episode we talk about what it really takes to start a freelance business or launch something new before you have everything figured out.
We get into testing ideas, making mistakes, taking the next small step and allowing your business to evolve as you learn.
And we talk about the shift from thinking of yourself as ‘just a freelancer’ to taking yourself seriously as a business owner – something Sophie thinks could change the way a lot of freelancers approach their businesses.
What you’ll learn in this episode
Why you don't need to have everything figured out before you start
How testing, making mistakes and taking the next small step can help you build confidence
Why seeing yourself as a business, rather than ‘just a freelancer’, can change how you work
Listen to the episode
Find it on your chosen podcast player here.
About Sophie Cross
Sophie Cross is the founder of Freelancer Magazine and self-appointed Chief Connector.
She launched Freelancer Magazine in 2020 after announcing the idea before she'd fully worked out how she was going to make it happen. Five years later, the magazine has become a community and resource for freelancers, sharing honest stories, advice and experiences from self-employed people.
Connect with, and follow Sophie and Freelancer Magazine
Connect with Sophie on LinkedIn
Follow Freelancer Magazine on LinkedIn
Follow Freelancer Magazine on Instagram
You might also like
If Sophie's thoughts on taking yourself seriously as a business owner resonate, listen to my conversation with Gina Buckle about the point when she realised being busy with freelance work wasn't the same as intentionally building a business.
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Want to be a guest?
Got a story or experience that could help other founders, freelancers or creative folk do things their own way? You can pitch to be a guest on Do your thing here.
Chapters
00:00:00 – Meet Sophie Cross and Freelancer Magazine
00:04:17 – The Rapid Launch of Freelancer Magazine
00:09:56 – From Corporate to Freelance: My Business Journey
00:12:55 – The Importance of Testing and Learning by Doing
00:19:40 – Shifting from Freelancer to Business Owner Mindset
00:24:20 – Building a Brand and the Art of Outsourcing
00:29:32 – Finding Support and Connection in Freelance Community
00:35:42 – Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and External Opinions
00:41:49 – Designing a Sustainable Work Life and Preventing Burnout
00:48:55 – The Biggest Barrier: Overcoming Perfectionism and Fear
00:53:11 – Key Takeaways and Where to Find Sophie
Transcript
Fliss Lee (00:00)
Thank you so much for joining me today, Sophie. It's amazing to have you here.
Sophie Cross (00:03)
Thank you so much. I'm yeah, I've been in quite a few podcasts. Not a brag. That is a brag. But I've been really excited like to come on this one. It's just the like the past episodes are really cool. And the topic is just like, yeah, it's what I'm about, I think, and what I think about 98 % of the time. So thank you so much.
Fliss Lee (00:26)
That's amazing to hear. That's exactly what I wanted you on here. So those who are listening who don't know you, please could you introduce yourself and share a bit about what you do.
Sophie Cross (00:35)
For sure. Yeah. So I am the founder and self appointed chief connector at Freelancer magazine. we've been going for five years now. We're a magazine business publication, print first for freelance creative B2B marketing freelancers.
and membership. we have virtual co-working, we have a directory, have lots of other things. And we are about to publish issue 21, which will be the first issue that I won't be the editor for. yeah, I've moved into kind of like a pure marketing, sales, strategic co-labs, community, looker-after-er.
role. Yeah, and I'm a marketer originally, to kind of finally rid myself, sounds bad, but of all the kind of operational side, you know, people are like, is it difficult to give it up? And I'm like, no, absolutely not.
Fliss Lee (01:28)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Cross (01:28)
I know Joanna Cummings, who we've taken on will do a much better job than me as editor. So it's just, yeah, it's amazing. It feels like a real big step for us. So yeah.
Fliss Lee (01:37)
And how many years have you been going as a magazine?
Sophie Cross (01:39)
So
five now, yeah just over five.
Fliss Lee (01:42)
Wow, that's quite
an achievement in an age when print is apparently dead.
Sophie Cross (01:50)
Yeah, yeah, I think
we launched in the pandemic via Kickstarter campaign and it was really good timing for us really in terms of getting the freelance community behind us. You know, when everyone was online, people were really excited about this. And I think now, you know, more than ever, the kind of rep...
and the connection and just the differentiation of having something posted to you and the smell of it and you know being able to go and sit in a cafe and you know be away from a screen is a really lovely thing it's like creating connections between people and knowledge sharing without being online which I think is really nice.
Fliss Lee (02:32)
Yeah, which is definitely much harder to do these days, for sure. So it's been going five years. What were you doing before and how did you get to launching Freelancer Magazine?
Sophie Cross (02:44)
So I've been freelance about 13 years now. So before that I was in corporate and I knew I always wanted to kind of start my own business and leave corporate and do my, do my own thing. So I was a freelance marketer. Then moving on to, I did a lot of copywriting mainly for the travel and hospitality industries. Pandemic here, I lost all my clients.
started making online marketing courses for freelancers and was trying to think of a way to market them and kind of raise my profile as someone who was an expert in marketing for freelancers and small businesses. And I was kind of thinking, you know, what format do I do this in and realized there wasn't a freelancer magazine and actually
Fliss Lee (03:26)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (03:26)
I didn't have a journalism background. didn't have a publication background as such, which is why
Fliss Lee (03:30)
You
Sophie Cross (03:30)
I don't really have imposter syndrome about making a magazine because I didn't know anything about it. But which is beautiful. It's such a lovely thing. Like I've had so much imposter syndrome about the marketing of it, but none about making magazine, which, you
Fliss Lee (03:44)
Wow.
Sophie Cross (03:45)
but I kind of knew like I had a print background in
that I made hotel brochures. mean, people that actually have fabrication backgrounds will probably be balking now thinking, oh, he made a hotel brochure so can make a magazine. But Ang, who's our creative lead, who's been our designer from day one, and I actually met because we were making a magazine for a hotel group. So it was kind of like half brochure, half magazine. So kind of new, like I knew the kind of rudimentary process that we used that I'd made up.
make that so i was like yeah you can make a magazine and it turns out i can
Fliss Lee (04:19)
It was five years, yeah,
you definitely can. So did it feel, was it quite heavily planned or was it almost just like a, how much thought did you put into thinking I'm gonna start a magazine? Was it quite a long thought process or was it quite quick to making it happen?
Sophie Cross (04:35)
yeah so almost none well a lot of thought i suppose over
Fliss Lee (04:38)
Hahaha
Sophie Cross (04:39)
a very short space of time so i'll share the timeline with you i had the idea on january 1st 2020
Fliss Lee (04:48)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (04:48)
i text ang that morning and said do you want to make a magazine like would you be up for it i've got this idea
I think the next day I was on, it's not around anymore, but there was a really big Facebook group called Freelance Heroes and they invited
Fliss Lee (05:03)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (05:04)
me on their podcast and I announced that I was making it on that podcast. And
Fliss Lee (05:08)
Wow, what had to happen then?
Sophie Cross (05:10)
yeah, I knew I wanted to launch via Kickstarter or crowdfunding. I just kind of had the sense that that would be a really great way to...
cover lots of different bases. I hadn't used it before, but I'd backed a couple of things on it before and I just thought this is brilliant because if people want it, they can buy the magazine through the Kickstarter. It'll force us to make decisions about what it's going to be like because we'll have to share. It'll give people kind of like a time specific, like a sense of urgency about like get involved now or forever hold your peace. And you know, if we...
don't make the money, we won't make the magazine. So it was a really good way of testing like a minimum viable product.
Fliss Lee (05:52)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (05:53)
And I kind of started talking to a couple of people and they said the pre-launch period is really important. Cause I was like, I think I really want to launch this Kickstarter in January. Bear in
Fliss Lee (06:03)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (06:04)
mind, like I didn't have much, like didn't really have any client works or didn't really have anything else to do at the time. So I was just working on this full time and
I said, I really want to launch it in January. And they said, I wouldn't like you need a pre-launch period to like build your database
Fliss Lee (06:16)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (06:17)
and things like that. So I said, I can't launch it in February. So I launched at the end
Fliss Lee (06:20)
hahahaha
Sophie Cross (06:21)
of February. We had the Kickstarter for a month. it went for something like, I think 28th of February to the 1st of April. And I really wanted the first magazine to drop in April because I really wanted to keep that momentum. And I.
One thing I didn't like about crowdfunding that I'd experienced is you fund something and then you wait like six months to get the product or you don't hear from them or things like that. And I was like, I really don't want this to happen. So yeah. And then we published the first magazine, which we were making at the same time as the Kickstarter was live. We published it at the end of April.
Fliss Lee (06:51)
Wow, wow. sounds like that was really important to you that you, well, first of all, I found amazing was that you announced it before it was even a thing. Like, I'm a big believer in doing that because that's when it happens. Did you feel like you kind of needed that for a bit of like, this is gonna happen? I'm just gonna tell people.
Sophie Cross (07:09)
Yeah, for sure. And it felt like a good opportunity, you know, it's a freelance heroes podcast. So I was just sort of thought,
I guess the thing is as well, like if I didn't end up making it, I don't think anyone else is going to lose any sleep over there. So, you know, it might've looked like a little bit of an idiot, but then you can just say, well this, this and this happened and we looked into it and it didn't happen. So, you know, you're allowed to change your mind. So I just thought, and I think, I dunno.
I had that sense that, I mean I've had a lot of light bulb moments, like I've had a lot of business ideas, like a lot, I've written a lot of business plans and I guess I had the sense that this was the one, like I really had the sense that this was the one and
Fliss Lee (07:47)
Mm.
Sophie Cross (07:48)
like so far so good I suppose.
Fliss Lee (07:52)
I
mean, five years in is pretty good. That's amazing. what made you think, right, I'm going to, I need to do something for freelancers? Was it your experience as a freelancer?
Sophie Cross (08:02)
Yeah, for sure. So I think I have always been really interested in how to set up a business, how to market a business. I would listen forever to other people talking about how they set up their businesses, a business they want to set up. that is my, you know, that's like, it's like, what thing could you talk about forever or listen to forever or be involved in forever?
I don't know why, like where it's come from, but I love that. Like it gets me emotional. so I knew when I started making online courses, they were going to be marketing courses and I could basically either target kind of like freelancers, small business owners, or travel and hospitality and travel and hospitality, obviously in COVID were in no position to want to buy online marketing courses. That was kind of why I'd,
lost all my business, lost all my clients. And I was a big part of freelance communities. when in the heyday of Twitter, you know, yeah, I was really fortunate to find some amazing freelance communities on there that actually came about because friend I used to work with, one of her colleagues had moved on to lastminute.com and
Fliss Lee (09:06)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (09:07)
They were looking for a copywriter and they asked her, do you know any good copywriters? And she said, yes, Sophie Cross. And she said, I've recommended you to lastminute.com. And I didn't know what a copywriter was at the time.
So I was like, thanks very much, May. I think because I'd obviously
Fliss Lee (09:17)
That's amazing.
Sophie Cross (09:21)
done a lot of writing, like I wasn't aware, but people had seen me, in my marketing roles, I used to work for Chess into the world of adventures. So I used to
Fliss Lee (09:29)
Mm.
Sophie Cross (09:29)
be the result marketing manager. And, you know, I guess people saw that I could write quite well, like websites and hotel brochures and marketing copy. So yeah, I was recommended as a copywriter. I didn't really know what one was. I actually remember embarrassingly for a little while at the beginning, had it.
spelt as two words on on LinkedIn when I first started pitching, was actually spelling copyrighted wrong on my LinkedIn. This is really bad, isn't it? Anyway,
Fliss Lee (09:51)
You
Sophie Cross (09:53)
so I went to Twitter to kind of find out what a copyright was and found this amazing copywriting community. It was like, yeah, this this I didn't realise what had fallen upon it. The first week they started, it was called our content club. was hashtag content club UK.
and I remember turning up and being like too scared to write an answer because I was like I'm gonna make a typo. Hypothetically where my bio is like copywriter.
Fliss Lee (10:20)
You
Sophie Cross (10:20)
Yeah, and I just found this amazing community and found out what copyright was, got the job at lastminute.com and became a copywriter for a good time.
Fliss Lee (10:30)
Nice.
Sophie Cross (10:31)
Until the pandemic hit. Yeah.
Fliss Lee (10:32)
Wow, I love it. People probably thought you were being ironic. Copywriter.
Sophie Cross (10:37)
Yeah, I think so, yeah. Yeah,
Fliss Lee (10:41)
So it's, I mean, job titles, don't get me started on them.
Why did you want to be freelance in the first place? Because obviously you've had your, you've obviously got the magazine, but you're freelancer. What made you go, actually I want to have my own business.
Sophie Cross (10:53)
So always wanted my own business and I'd just written like I'd got quite far well I've written business plans for quite a few and I mean like florists, sausage and mash restaurants,
Fliss Lee (11:04)
I'd go to that.
Sophie Cross (11:06)
like
I've found like sometimes I go through my folders and find things and it's like, yeah, I've had a magazine that was called On and Off, loads of different things. And I lived in London at the time as well. So I would literally get to the point of going, right, so how much were premises if I want to set up this sausage and mash restaurant and being like, Oh,
250,000 pounds. Okay.
Fliss Lee (11:24)
Ha ha ha!
Sophie Cross (11:25)
and I again had the kind of brainwave. had a long commute around the South circular to work at the time. And one day I thought,
god like I could set up a business being a marketer I actually
Fliss Lee (11:35)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (11:36)
know how to do that and the startup costs would be like quite a lot less than launching a sausage and mash restaurant so that's where I became a freelance marketer
Fliss Lee (11:46)
Well we have missed out on sausage and mash restaurant which I would actually frequent quite a lot if you did do that in the future.
Sophie Cross (11:50)
I
not fully given up on the idea. Hip-hop chip shop?
Fliss Lee (11:58)
I thought I'd this. We need to talk more about
this. Maybe that's another episode. Just get all these ideas out.
Sophie Cross (12:02)
Yeah, what like we
could just get people to vote what should Sophie set up. I also have one the other day of
Fliss Lee (12:07)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (12:08)
a pizza restaurant that only serves pineapple on pizza.
Fliss Lee (12:12)
no.
Sophie Cross (12:12)
you
Fliss Lee (12:13)
If
anyone is listening and they want to vote, feel free in the comments. Love that. Was it just that you wanted to have a business or did you just not want to work for anyone?
Sophie Cross (12:23)
Yeah,
I think I wanted control.
And I think other than the community, like, freelance magazine was the perfect idea because it lent itself so nicely to being.
community focused and it you know from day one it was like all about the community that we got the community involved that was you know why we were so successful like and the Kickstarter was so successful and continue to be successful really like it's really about word of mouth and yeah people of sharing that they're getting the magazine or that they're out virtual co-working but yeah other than the community to this day the main reason i do it is
I just love having, you know, you can make a decision and obviously I'm quite a quick, decision maker and I act quite quickly on decisions. So I think there's probably something about having other people involved in that process that is extremely frustrating for me. And I think
Fliss Lee (13:15)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (13:15)
as a marketer, just to have something that you can just apply and test and, you know, not have your ideas diluted and just.
be allowed to run with them. Like, I
Fliss Lee (13:26)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (13:26)
suppose that was a dream to be a marketer in a corporate setting was just soul destroying for me. so yeah, that was absolutely, I think I've really wanted my own business and I loved, love being freelance, but then I think I also wanted, especially from a marketing perspective, like a product that I
Fliss Lee (13:44)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (13:44)
could really test on that as well.
so yeah, and it's great. And like moving into this, this role now, which is kind of pure marketing essentially is just, yeah, the last couple of months since that happened has been, has felt really, really good.
Fliss Lee (14:00)
freeing, like try things.
Sophie Cross (14:03)
For sure.
Fliss Lee (14:04)
So like how important is it to you to be able to like just test and iterate and evolve things?
Sophie Cross (14:11)
Yeah, it's the most important thing. I think I could be better at data and things like that. Like this is something and probably haven't really had time, you know, so I guess testing in, I like to do a lot of my testing qualitatively. And I suppose when you're so
Fliss Lee (14:25)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (14:26)
close to the community, you kind of like, you get a sense of like, you know, what's working and what isn't, but I think there's a real danger in relying on that. And I think
Fliss Lee (14:35)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Cross (14:35)
Yeah. Now think I finally have the time to test a bit more, you know, like in a proper sense of the word in a marketing sense.
Fliss Lee (14:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sophie Cross (14:44)
Yeah, we're just about to launch a quiz to try and, grow subscribers, to grow like email subscribers and, just find out like more about where people are on their freelance journey. We're going to give people like a
Fliss Lee (14:56)
Mm.
Sophie Cross (14:57)
free mini course that, that correlates with where they are and like what, what they might want to do next. And I think, yeah, I think as part of that, you know, it's about us learning.
but for the good of the community as well, not just so we can sell people more stuff. For sure. Okay.
Fliss Lee (15:11)
Yeah, yeah, learn so you can create great things. So in your freelance career, not necessarily a freelancer magazine, I'd love to hear about the mistakes you maybe have made or learnings you've had along the way that have made you go, okay.
Sophie Cross (15:29)
gosh, I mean so many and I'm conscious
Fliss Lee (15:31)
Let's start.
Sophie Cross (15:32)
of being, you know, the editor of Freelancer magazine or had been the editor and when I was the editor I was going, gosh, still making some mistakes, don't tell anybody.
Fliss Lee (15:42)
yeah.
Sophie Cross (15:42)
like, yeah, loads, all of the main ones. Not
deciding on a niche for a long time. I'm quite pro-niche and I think for a long
Fliss Lee (15:50)
Hmm. Yes.
Sophie Cross (15:51)
time I fought against travel and hospitality. I mean you can now say the fact that I was niche in that was the down full of my you know of my business but yeah I think for a long time because I'd worked in travel and hospitality as an employee I kind of wanted to do different things and
Fliss Lee (16:09)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (16:10)
and then I was like this is where all of my contacts lie this is where
All of my experience lies. And, it's also something I really enjoy in my free time. Why am I fighting this?
you know, looking back, I didn't find community until really late. I would have, sorted out.
client onboarding process a lot sooner. I would have got insurance
Fliss Lee (16:30)
Hmm
Sophie Cross (16:31)
a lot sooner. I think because I had lot of contacts and ex-employers, I was really lucky that I had quite a lot of good work and I would be quite strict about getting a PO and things like that. so.
There was only a couple of times I got stitched a little bit by those clients that kind
Fliss Lee (16:52)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (16:53)
of turn up, on a Friday afternoon and go, we need this by Monday morning for 75 quid. And for some reason you go, okay. And then they don't pay you. I think we kind of have to make the mistakes, you it's, you just don't really want to make them twice, basically. So,
Fliss Lee (17:09)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (17:10)
Yeah, I think even though I really wanted my own business and I was really keen to create a brand. So my freelance business is called Thoughtfully. I probably still didn't see myself as a business as much
as I could have, you know, that would have been helpful. And that's what we're really trying to help people with with Freelancer Magazine. I think that's one of the main things is going.
like see yourself as a business not as just a freelancer.
Fliss Lee (17:38)
okay. That's really interesting because I come across that a lot with them. It's like a mindset shift, isn't it? What kind of helped you have that mindset shift from like, how did it feel? What was the difference between the two?
Sophie Cross (17:52)
So when I talk to people about it,
Because I've got this hospitality background, I almost compare it to like, and probably the sausage and mashed fantasy. I compare it to thinking about setting up a restaurant. So I
Fliss Lee (18:05)
Mm.
Sophie Cross (18:06)
feel like when you're a freelancer, it's really, you know, I hear a lot of people say I'm really uncomfortable marketing myself. but also kind of complaining about irregular income, you know, a sort of sales pipeline that
that is quite unpredictable. And I had a really good, really sensible piece of advice. I think it was from Austin L. Church saying, if you don't have a regular marketing habit, you kind of can't expect a regular inbound leads. And I feel like if you were going to set up a cafe or a restaurant, you wouldn't expect to have customers if you didn't do any marketing.
You wouldn't expect to have to do everything yourself. You wouldn't expect not to have to pay close attention to your costs. And I think if we can treat our freelance businesses, like this, you know, you wouldn't expect someone to come into your Italian restaurant and go, but could you do me a chicken chow mein?
And I'm prepared to pay you
Fliss Lee (19:04)
You
Sophie Cross (19:05)
£8.50 for it instead of 12 quid and go, yeah, okay, I'll give it a go. You know, I'll kind of pay you in a few months time. I know some of these things we do have to a degree of, flexibility over, but I just think, we need to take ourselves seriously as businesses and as business owners and,
workout ways that we do feel comfortable marketing ourselves, you know, and actually
Fliss Lee (19:28)
Hmm
Sophie Cross (19:29)
if you really don't want to be the face of it, or you really don't want to go to in-person networking, or you really don't want to do one thing or another, there are plenty of other ways that you can get clients, but I guess it's also about dedicating that time to, you know, spending on the business.
not just
Fliss Lee (19:46)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (19:46)
working in the business. And, if you were setting up a restaurant, you would put a lot of thought into your menu and your offering And I just think that's a really nice way to look at it. And things like business insurance,
I think that mindset shift and having that security even if you never end up using it.
it just makes you feel like a business owner. Like, you know, you've got that to rely on. Certainly having a separate business bank account,
Fliss Lee (20:10)
Yes.
Sophie Cross (20:10)
becoming limited. know, you know, you can kind of look up financially when that's viable, but if these things help you make the mindset shift as well, then they're kind of worth it regardless if you're going to save a few hundred quid on tax.
There's a real balance that I probably haven't always got between wanting to do it my way and doing my thing and, focusing on making enough money or things like that and I think sometimes we tell ourselves that, it's not about the money and things like that, but we have
Fliss Lee (20:36)
You
Sophie Cross (20:37)
to kind of realize as business owners, like it is about the money.
Fliss Lee (20:40)
You're a business, you're there to make money. It can be about two things or three things, not
Sophie Cross (20:42)
Yeah, for sure.
Fliss Lee (20:45)
just the money. I think it's that difference between being a person for hire and a person who is a skilled expert and does things a certain way and people come to you that thing that you do rather than just being a person, that they can pay money to do something.
Sophie Cross (21:01)
Absolutely, and I think that that.
is more important than ever. That's what we're seeing. we're running our first virtual summit, like masterclass next week. And really all of the workshops are geared towards, making freelancers, see themselves as businesses like Alex Thompson. his workshop is literally from order taker to strategic partner. And, we're seeing that these
order taking style jobs are getting taken by AI now anyway. So I think to move into this strategic partner, and I guess, you know, in a restaurant sense, love it, love the restaurant metaphor, but you know, you're going to
restaurant for the whole experience, aren't you? You're not going for a cheese sandwich.
Fliss Lee (21:38)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (21:39)
so, you know, and you pay a premium because that's, that's the deal. So
looking towards value-based pricing when that makes sense for you. defined packages as opposed to of day rates or, finger in the air, which I've certainly done a lot of times in the past.
Yeah. it's going to be those freelancers that of set themselves apart in this environment, which is changing, faster than we've ever known.
Fliss Lee (22:01)
Yeah, it really is. Did you see, did some of your thinking around how you saw yourself, did that shift happen when you started thinking about it Freelancer magazine as a brand, obviously it was a different new brand, but did that change your thinking, like, that's a brand that I'm creating.
Sophie Cross (22:17)
Yeah, but in all honesty, probably not as much as it should
Fliss Lee (22:19)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (22:22)
have done because it still felt, I mean, Ange has been our designer from day one, but other than that, was
it felt very one woman. I was doing everything, you know,
Fliss Lee (22:31)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sophie Cross (22:32)
I was spinning all the plates. There was just more plates and I didn't really probably have time to think about, you know, I'm five years in and there's still things like I'm embarrassed about our pricing, to be honest, like I genuinely am and things are going to change around here. But,
Fliss Lee (22:48)
You
Sophie Cross (22:50)
it did feel easier to kind of make the separation, but then there's
Fliss Lee (22:53)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (22:54)
always that question, isn't there? Like when you are a product and a brand.
people still want to work with people, right? So there's always been a bit of to and fro-ing in terms of
Fliss Lee (23:05)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (23:06)
how much I wanted to be the face of it. And it's easier now, like I'm almost more willing to become front-facing or more front-facing now. Like we have this freelance team, we have a new editor,
Fliss Lee (23:18)
you
Sophie Cross (23:18)
you know, kind of a bit more willing to share.
a bit more kind of content on Instagram and things like that. And, it feels really exciting to market something that someone else has made instead of going, hey, look at this thing I made, which I know is silly because, we have loads of, contributors and writers and, so many people go into making a magazine, but I suppose it's just an energy thing as well, right? Like,
I always say that and you you tell people, but people put 95 % into content and 5 % into distribution. And
Fliss Lee (23:47)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (23:47)
it's a really hard cycle to break because you want to make the best thing you can. And by the time that's done, you don't have any energy to actually tell people about it.
Fliss Lee (23:58)
I don't know, bet. I think when you were talking there about the brand and it separating you a person from that brand and that business and maybe it feels a little bit easier now because it's not just you driving it. There's multiple people, it feels like a thing that you're all part of rather than it's just...
just you juggling all the things, which is really hard to separate yourself. And I think that that can be really hard when you're just you and your business. It is you and your business. So trying to think about that differently
Sophie Cross (24:22)
Yeah. Mm.
Fliss Lee (24:30)
as a business, as a thing rather than as a person is, is, a challenge. Brings with a lot of different challenges.
Sophie Cross (24:37)
Yeah. And I think like just advice that you get in terms of like outsource stuff,
Fliss Lee (24:43)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (24:43)
you should only be working on the things that you can do. Like you do best and you know, that earns you the most money and things like that, you know, in your zone of genius. It's great advice, but you have to kind of work it out yourself. And then, you know, you get to that point and now I think, my God, like
Fliss Lee (24:59)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (25:00)
having a VA,
now having the editor of the magazine, like we have a proofreader and a distributor and, she does the design and a features writer. essentially I was doing almost all of those roles for about a year. And, it's taken that long to work out what to outsource.
Yeah, it is absolutely what you need to do to make your business, like for me, think to make my business sustainable and enjoyable, I had to bring other people into it. But it's really
Fliss Lee (25:30)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (25:30)
hard, just to get that advice and go, gosh, I've kind of lost a lot of money outsourcing the wrong things through, only my own fault, because I just hadn't kind of thought about it.
In the right way. you
Fliss Lee (25:42)
It's not easy to make that decision to outsource or invest in things, it? Did you find that it was other people suggesting it to
you or did you get to a point where you thought, no, I actually have to do this?
Sophie Cross (25:54)
So I knew that was what I needed to do but I think I hadn't got to the point with the business where I'd set up enough systems and processes and didn't pick a specialist so didn't go right this is the bit I need to outsource this is our process for it and this person could do it better than me.
Fliss Lee (26:14)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (26:14)
So what I did was I took on an editorial assistant two days a week, which was a lot of money, but someone who was quite junior, thought that was the answer, but then hadn't actually worked out what they were going to do and spent a lot of time going, maybe you could do some social media or maybe you could do this. and then had to let them go, which was really hard, like really like.
just really sad, but you get to these points where you're like, this is them or the business basically. so yeah, that was a mistake I made, but we learn and we go on.
Fliss Lee (26:44)
You only learn by doing, don't you? It's about what you take from those mistakes, which I always say in air quotes, because they're never a mistake. It's the learning you take
rather than what happens. So why did you think that freelancers needed their, there were obviously communities out there, but why did you think they needed their own magazine and community?
Sophie Cross (27:05)
I just thought, you know, there wasn't a freelancer magazine and
I kind of remembered the days of getting the fun day times. And even though you kind of didn't know the other people, you know, these days before, you know, way before mobile phones or the internet, you know, when the like dinosaurs were around, this is where we've got to now, isn't it? Saying things like this. Crikey.
Fliss Lee (27:27)
Yes. Yeah, yeah.
Sophie Cross (27:29)
But feeling part of a club.
even though you
Fliss Lee (27:32)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (27:33)
weren't able to see other kids sharing photos online or anything like that, but you were like, yeah. And I just
Fliss Lee (27:41)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Cross (27:41)
thought, how cool is that? You can post people something and they can feel part of it in this of online day and age. And of course we blend it with online. We have a digital version. We don't have
Yeah, I think we're going to introduce it probably in one of our higher tiers, like Slack channel or online, like direct kind of forum where people can chat because we felt we wanted to make the best magazine we could and not try and do absolutely everything. And there are other places like Being Freelance that do that really well. But we started virtual co-working, you we tried loads of different things and virtual co-working was one of the things that
just went really well and people wanted to volunteer to host and we've run it three times a week, every single week. It's run by volunteer hosts and it's just amazing. And people don't believe that it works. And it's kind of that idea that you get told about and go, that sounds awful. Why would they want to do that? and then you go, I
Fliss Lee (28:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sophie Cross (28:40)
like this, I hosted it this morning and I saw I try and host it.
like at least once a month. And I could see a couple of kind of people who like I don't think had been before or hadn't been for a while. Like everyone was just like really smiling, just like really like, like, yeah, I could see like one person who was new, I think that was just obviously had taken a punt and didn't know what it was going to be like and
There's just this lovely blend of being friendly, casual, chill, but like really productive. And I
Fliss Lee (29:10)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (29:10)
honestly turned it off today and felt a bit sad. I was like, just on my own now. Yeah. So
Fliss Lee (29:14)
really?
Sophie Cross (29:17)
yeah, really nice way to, you know, I think it's
Fliss Lee (29:20)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (29:20)
so important. Like I can, stay, like just stay in my office.
Like I have to work in silence and I have to be really careful now to make sure I leave the house. Like living near Leeds, like where we live, like there's so many amazing events and I just find that so helpful.
Fliss Lee (29:34)
Hmm. Hmm.
Sophie Cross (29:36)
there's really cool marketing and creative communities there. And it's been really lovely having the magazine because I kind of know people without knowing them and almost have
ready-made friends.
But yeah, I think that the more we can interact with other people a bit, you know, I think sometimes as freelancers, we don't have meetings, you know, we don't have colleagues, we tell ourselves that we need
Fliss Lee (30:00)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (30:01)
to focus. so yeah, I think virtual co-working is a really nice way to have that focus time. Like we work in silence. But it's just, yeah, for some...
like a lot of people that come like some people come nearly every day and they're like it's just been a game changer so that's that's awesome.
Fliss Lee (30:17)
Wow. I always say like my community has been, I've found like a support network as soon as I went self-employed, because I love working on my own as well. I'm like one of those people. And then I quickly realized, I was like, I do need people. But it's
Sophie Cross (30:26)
Mm.
Fliss Lee (30:31)
been, I think it got me through COVID. And it's really just, it's having people around me who have become like my best friends have A, helped me see the value of what I do. they've.
they encourage you and support you, but also make you feel like you're not the only one with these problems, don't they? Like, you're not alone. Yeah.
Sophie Cross (30:51)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah,
those are two, you know, those two things kind of helping you see the value and giving you that perspective, but also
making you not feel like an idiot when you do make mistakes because they're like, oh yeah, I've done that too. Yeah, it was the
Fliss Lee (31:05)
Yeah, yeah.
Sophie Cross (31:07)
perfect way to describe, think, why we need community. And yeah, think you're also like for me, these people are some of my like my best friends now, or like the people I'm closest
Fliss Lee (31:17)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (31:18)
to the people I see the most often, whether that's online or in person, you know, I think that I'm in my 40s now, I don't have children.
So like lots of my friends had kids and you know, don't know hardly anyone, certainly from my close friends or family who are freelance or have their own business. So I think that
Fliss Lee (31:35)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (31:35)
you end up, finding the people that yeah, you have stuff in common with and some of them can become like really good mates, which is just really lovely, I think. Cause it's not easy to make friends kind of.
as an adult yeah
Fliss Lee (31:49)
Yeah, I always like it. Like when I was employed, I'm gonna say this now, there weren't many jobs that I had where I liked my coworkers. Not in a horrible way,
as in like just didn't have things in common. And then when I went in-house, like I found a team where I had things in common with people and I just got on really well with them. And that was the first experience.
But I think when you're self-employed, you can choose your co-workers and it's so amazing. You can choose people who support you and hang out with you. And that's just a beautiful, beautiful thing, isn't it?
Sophie Cross (32:14)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, you my twenties were basically spent going to the pub with co-workers, spending all our money, moaning about...
all he did was bitch and moan about work and it was like how is you know looking back how is that healthy or yeah and that's kind of the thing that you do with those people like yeah it's not kind of always true friendships or healthy friendships
Fliss Lee (32:45)
Yeah, they don't get you in the same way. What have you... I've got this question written down here and I'm really interested after that to ask you this. What have you learned about belonging through building Freelancer magazine?
Sophie Cross (32:57)
gosh, God, big question.
Fliss Lee (33:00)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (33:01)
I think, I think that it's really easy not to do things that you maybe want to do because
you're worried about what other people might think. And like I said, like my kind of entry into the freelance community space was not like not knowing what a copywriter was trying to find out what a copywriter was. So massive, kind of imposter syndrome. Well, not even imposter syndrome, just genuinely kind of.
trying to find out and are being surrounded by all these amazing copywriters. So yeah, I think going from this like very newbie
Yeah, and being supported by those people and kind of then in turn seeing new people enter the space and realising that it was my role to make them feel like how other people had made me feel. I think that, you know, you...
I had some amazing role models and I think that it then, you I felt like it was, you know, my chance. Like you always kind of, you're always ahead of some people on a journey and behind some people, you're never gonna get where you kind of think that you wanna get to and get there and be like, I've made it.
Fliss Lee (34:23)
It's
all done. It's done. It's not. Yeah.
Sophie Cross (34:26)
Yeah. And I just think,
gosh, like freelance, particularly copywriters on Twitter in 2018, but, you know, going forward, a lot of them moved over to LinkedIn and it's not just copywriters like everyone in our community, I'd say. just some of the most generous people with their knowledge, absolutely believe in this kind of rising tide lifts or boats.
And I suppose that was the thing I wanted to be part of. Like that was a thing
Fliss Lee (34:52)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (34:52)
that I believed in and could, could absolutely buy into. And that made me feel like I belonged there and it made me have the confidence to go, I'll take a punt on this. I'll take a punt on this. actually, when I first launched my courses, again, really quickly, the first one I did like really poor.
poorly kind of designed in Canberra and I told myself that it was ironic, you know, that I got the irony of it. But, you know, it was a bit of a joke, but again, it was like, let's just test this. Let's see if it works. Let's see what happens. I remember finishing up making a course and like I was going to launch it the next day and, know, genuinely like crying like on my bed, like feeling sick, just going, I'm not going to do it.
Look I'm not gonna, I'm just not gonna do it. Like I don't have to do it. I'm not gonna press publish, I'm not gonna press send, I'm not gonna press tweet. And I guess it was actually just the fact that I'd spent so much time making it that made me think I might as well. But actually if you have a little conversation with yourself and a little word with yourself and go like people aren't gonna like point and laugh.
You know, I think it would just be a real shame in life to stop yourself doing anything because you're worried about what other people might think of that and whether that's, you know, I think a lot of the time when we first start out, it's like people went to school with, you know, like, God, I'm connected with some people I went to school with, like how ludicrous that we would care. but also I suppose.
99 % of people are really really kind and are just boosted for you and are like my god they've made something. If there is a 1 % of people that are being mean A. they're jealous and B.
Fliss Lee (36:30)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (36:31)
why would you let that person stop you? Like if someone came up to me in the street and was like I don't think you could do that like that's ludicrous like you won't be able to do that.
Like that would only make me determined to do it. yeah, like bring on those people. Mm.
Fliss Lee (36:43)
Me too. Yeah. I'm pig-headed. Yeah. I'll show you. Yeah. My dad... Remember when I applied for graphic design at uni? My dad asked me if I wanted... Sure, you don't want to do something like English or history, know, something that'll get you a job. Sorry? First of all, don't know how
that's going to happen. Second of all, no dad, I'm going to do graphic design and I bloody showed him. That's like... I'm... You know. But I think like...
Sophie Cross (37:07)
Yeah, it's great.
Fliss Lee (37:11)
I do think when you're self-employed and you have great people around you, you've also got people who make you feel like you can do it, who even if you have those moments of going, I don't think I can do that, they're gonna be like you saying, why can't you do it? You're amazing. I think that's so important and wonderful as well that we've got all these people who'll do that for us.
Sophie Cross (37:38)
And I think you attract people, you know, you attract like-minded people, so if you're the type of person that wants to champion others and support others and lift others, you're gonna, you know, you should be surrounding yourself with those people because if that's the energy you're giving out and if that's not the energy you're giving out, then unfortunately you might not be able to benefit so much from those people.
So yeah, I think it is absolutely a kind of what goes around comes around and I've always really liked connecting, kind of connecting people to each other or, you know, I'm really still kind of like love being like, like I see a podcast or I see a book or I see a silly thing and I'll just randomly message someone I met at networking event like six months ago and be like, do you remember we were talking about this or like...
Fliss Lee (38:22)
Hahaha
Sophie Cross (38:23)
you know or like this person I went see I met this person the other day you definitely really like them and I just think yeah like that's just something else I kind of like to do and don't really mind being that idiot that pops up in someone's inbox like six months later and goes I saw this real and full of you yeah
Fliss Lee (38:40)
It's like silly me. Yeah,
I love that. I love that. So I'd just love to... You're obviously juggling thoughtfully and... Freelancer magazine.
I'd love to understand how you've kind of designed your working life to kind of make it sustainable for you and so you don't like burn out.
Sophie Cross (39:07)
I would say Trello. If Trello wants to sponsor me because I probably
Fliss Lee (39:10)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (39:11)
mentioned Trello every day.
I really forgot a new fan love for Trello again a couple of years ago. No, about a year ago maybe. And I plan everything by day now, which has been a bit groundbreaking because I'll put in like if I'm at an event. So before what I used to do was be like, here's my weekly to-do list. I'll just split that by five. I'll probably be able to get that done and then realise I was out of the office for like Thursday, Friday. So now I plan like probably mid-month I'll plan for March. If not like mid-Feb I might plan for March.
Fliss Lee (39:41)
All right.
Sophie Cross (39:41)
and put in
like all of the days I'm out. Like I'll have a kind of, you know, priorities of things like that I'll capture, like, what do I want to do for April? What do I want to do for May? And then I'll make sure they're in there as well. Put any deadlines in. I think, do know, it's a really interesting question. I've heard you talk about burnout before as well. And to be completely honest, like this year I've been absolutely buzzing, buzzing
Fliss Lee (40:03)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (40:03)
about this like new marketing role. You know, you've heard me talk about it.
I was actually writing a piece for a client yesterday about burnout
Fliss Lee (40:10)
Alright.
Sophie Cross (40:11)
and it was like about spotting the signs early and I was like the last couple of days I've kind of been like a bit reluctant to get out of bed I'd say like more reluctant
Fliss Lee (40:21)
You
Sophie Cross (40:21)
than normal because normally I'm a bit like I'll wake up and think about the things I've got to do and be like I'm kind of buzzing to get started with that.
and I've kind of just realised and it was only because I wrote this article that I realised, do you know what, I think you might be starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed with all this. And like yeah we've got loads coming up, like we've got the masterclass next week, I'm seeing the new magazine for the first time tomorrow, we are launching a new website, we've just kind of started, they've just started building it, like that's just top line of the few things that are happening kind of over the next month. And I...
can work at a really, get a lot done in a day if I'm kind of on form. And I really was thinking about it, like I forced myself to go for a walk before this podcast because I was like, this is something I'm really trying to do, really trying to have like at least a walk a day. And it was it's raining and it was only because I was doing this podcast, I was like, come on, like you're going to talk on this podcast about this sort of thing, like you have to go and do a walk. And I was thinking on the walk that
If I hadn't kind of started to recognise that this was probably
Fliss Lee (41:23)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (41:24)
the sign of first signs of burnout, my reaction to feeling this overwhelm would be to work more.
Fliss Lee (41:32)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Cross (41:33)
And I think that's what where we come unstuck because when you start to feel a little bit anxious and a little bit overwhelmed, you think, the way I fix this is by doing more work. And I was like,
Fliss Lee (41:43)
Do more stuff. Yes, that was me.
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (41:47)
Yeah. I think,
right, you've noticed this now. Don't do more work, do less work. Yeah. And
Fliss Lee (41:54)
Great learning.
Sophie Cross (41:56)
I think, you know, it's those things that when you've been in business a certain amount of time, those are the things really that you kind of getting to know yourself a bit better and
Fliss Lee (42:04)
Hmm.
Sophie Cross (42:05)
what works for you, you know, is just as important as kind of raising your rate or...
yeah. So that is how I'm kind of balancing everything is like, actually trying to pay attention to myself.
Fliss Lee (42:20)
Yeah, I think that was my biggest learning, like pay attention to yourself and how you work and spot them signs early. yeah, one of my new signs is if me and my husband, he's not self-employed, but if we go through the week and we've had like, we've said, oh, do you want a sofa tea? A few nights a week, that's a sign that we're exhausted and we need a break because we don't
Sophie Cross (42:40)
gosh.
Fliss Lee (42:41)
want to sit at the table and talk to each other.
Sophie Cross (42:42)
That's such a good one. I think I might have had
Fliss Lee (42:44)
neurons.
Sophie Cross (42:45)
a sofa tea for about the last three months to be honest. Yeah.
Fliss Lee (42:47)
Yeah, well there you go. It's a good sign to spot.
Sophie Cross (42:52)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (42:52)
Yeah. I just want to touch quickly on the fact that you're a white van woman. you tried, do you work when you're on the road ever, traveling? Or is that a bit of an escape from work type thing?
Sophie Cross (43:08)
I have done, yeah I have done and like in the obvious, it's been winter hasn't it so I'm kind of like
Fliss Lee (43:15)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (43:15)
it's hard to remember now those beautiful days. Yeah I have done a little bit but yeah I think I probably do try and separate the two now I think I did when I first got it.
kind of go, this is the dream. and then, know, you end up driving around 10 times to try and find 5g and you know, it's kind of, you know, and there's glare. You're like, just open the doors up and it gets absolutely boiling and things like that. So I think, you know, I'm really, really into kind of mindset stuff and trying to shift my mindset and recognize things. And I think one of the things I used to do was feel guilty.
when I was working because I'm freelance and I could not be working. I could be having an amazing adventure and then feel
Fliss Lee (43:56)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (43:57)
guilty when I wasn't working because I could be working. And I'm kind of trying to separate the two a bit more now. And in light of that, I was like, I'm not going to take my laptop. We're going to go to the lakes this weekend in the van, I think. And I was like, I'm not going to take my laptop. Cause always take it because why not? Right. And if you need to kind of just jump on, it's a bit easier. And it instantly does make me feel a bit like
but why not take it? I just thought, you know, I just might not like nine out of 10 times. I wouldn't use it when I took it like away for a weekend. But I was like, you can make that decision for yourself. But yeah.
Fliss Lee (44:29)
Yeah, when I I chatted to Jo Hooper, we had a long conversation about boundaries, but I think it's about setting boundary when you're when you're self-employed and it's just doing your business, you have to set boundaries with yourself, don't you? And part of those boundaries about having time off and enjoying that time off
Sophie Cross (44:43)
you
Fliss Lee (44:45)
and not feeling guilty about not working.
Sophie Cross (44:47)
Yeah, and I think there's something, you know, again, I felt like when I walked back, I was like, oh, well, I started work at like eight today. So that's okay. I've been for a walk at three or two or whatever. And I thought, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that you start work at eight. Like this kind of, you know, idea that we have to work nine to five, Monday to Friday. we were, it's really hard to get us out of it. And I suppose to
Fliss Lee (45:08)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (45:09)
try and, you know, hotspot for three hours and get a few things done when I could be.
having a break and a rest and then be on my wifi in my home office focusing. Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for like knowing what you do best and when and yeah, honoring yourself with rest.
Fliss Lee (45:30)
Well, I feel that we could we could go on for hours about this but I think that is a wonderful place to wrap this chat up. I have really enjoyed this chat, Sophie, and I think it's just for me community is everything. think just chatting to you about that and just feeling the support and love for freelancers and people who are self-employed it's just like such a passion for me. So it was
Sophie Cross (45:43)
Me too, thank you.
Fliss Lee (46:03)
I would love to know, you've
Sophie Cross (46:02)
me too, thank you.
Fliss Lee (46:07)
obviously met a lot of people and worked with a lot of people in your time, what do you think the biggest barrier to somebody doing things their way is?
Sophie Cross (46:18)
So I definitely think it's like mindset things. So I'm
Fliss Lee (46:23)
Mmm.
Sophie Cross (46:23)
going to go with, mean, there obviously can be so many, but I think something that we've touched on already and that idea of caring what other people think.
And, you know, I guess it's sort of related to perfectionism as well. Like, I can't launch this or I can't do this because it's got to be perfect. And I think that's
Fliss Lee (46:41)
Yeah.
Sophie Cross (46:41)
really related to, like, the fear of what other people might think and probably not being that logical in realizing, you know, like I said, if I mentioned the magazine on freelance heroes and we never ended up making it like no one else is going to be losing any sleep over that.
So, you know, I think people say to me, like, you must be a real perfectionist. And I think, God, I wouldn't have made 20 magazines if I was a real perfectionist. And do know what? don't think we've like, we've definitely had typos. Like we've definitely, you know, not got everything right. you know, I could count on probably one hand, how many people have probably not even complained, but pointed something out.
So yeah, don't let that, don't let that stop you. Yeah.
Fliss Lee (47:22)
is a bloody good advice. I think everybody who actually likes to use things, they will probably say you have to drop that perfectionism. And I know that it's stalled me, it's stopped me. You know, it's stopped me doing this podcast for a while. The time needs to be right or I need to have it, my ducks in a row. I absolutely don't. And
it would never have happened if I hadn't just learned to try and drop that feeling. So yeah, great advice.
Sophie Cross (47:48)
And I think there's really
something about making your own thing. you know, for freelancers, I would really say like, you know, whether it's a podcast or zine or a, yeah, I just think don't let that, like, don't let that fear stop you kind of making something. Cause making something is like making something for you or, you know, that you want to make is really cool.
Fliss Lee (48:09)
Yeah, that feeling when you've created something and it grows is such an amazing thing. So yeah, totally. So, what's one thing that's helped you to do your thing?
Sophie Cross (48:23)
So I'm gonna say sort of building resilience and I think that comes from just taking the next small step sometimes or sometimes tricking yourself like I said
you know, publishing on my first few courses was genuinely terrifying but because I'd made them I kind of had to. But I think
Fliss Lee (48:44)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Cross (48:45)
just taking something back to like as small as, you know, is the next step that you feel that you can take. I think, you know, it really helps you kind of build that resilience or build that
kind of just not caring anymore about, like you would, you know, it seems wild to me. I know I felt all these things. I know I was worried about what other people thought. And I know people now kind of look at me and think, gosh, like you can just do that. And I wouldn't be able to do that. But that's come from like years of just taking the next small step. So I think like for me, I hold building resilience.
like travelling on my own, like travelling in the van on my own, sleeping in car parks on my own.
Fliss Lee (49:25)
You
Sophie Cross (49:26)
Like it's a really important skill for me to kind of have built in life. So yeah.
Fliss Lee (49:33)
Yeah, I think taking the next small step is actually, and actually I think that is really good advice if you've got that perfectionist mindset. Just do one thing and then do the next thing. I think it really helps to just chip away at it rather than see it as a massive thing and build that kind of strength in you.
Sophie Cross (49:49)
Yeah, absolutely. Me too.
Fliss Lee (49:51)
Well, thank you so much for chatting to me today. absolutely, like, really enjoyed it. I could have gone on for absolutely hours. If people want to know more about you, how can they find you and how can they find Freelancer magazine?
Sophie Cross (50:09)
So the best place to find me is probably on LinkedIn. So if you search Sophie Cross.
Freedancer Magazine, you'll find me. And we're at freelancermagazine.co.uk.
Fliss Lee (50:19)
Thank you Sophie.
Sophie Cross (50:20)
Thank you so much, Piers. It's been nice.
Fliss Lee (50:22)
Bye!
Sophie Cross (50:24)
Bye.
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