“What does money mean to you?” with Holly Dannhauser
Do your thing · Season 2, Episode 6 · Hosted by Fliss Lee
How your relationship with money affects your business, what you charge and the value you put on your work
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I heard Holly Dannhauser speak about our relationship with money and immediately thought, I need to get her on the podcast.
She talked about how the things we believe about money, what our work is worth and what we should or shouldn’t be earning can influence the decisions we make without us even realising it.
And it made so much sense to me.
I’ve met so many business owners who struggle with money and their own sense of worth, and I know from my own experience how easy it is to pick up beliefs about money without really questioning where they’ve come from.
Holly is the founder of Moon and Mountain. She works with people on the practical business stuff like strategy and direction, but also the things going on underneath that can get in the way, like confidence, money and what we believe we deserve.
In this episode, Holly shares her own money wake-up call after becoming self-employed and what happened when she realised her relationship with money was influencing the way she was running her business.
We talk about the beliefs and behaviours we pick up around money, why understanding them can help us make more conscious decisions, and why creatives in particular can find it difficult to put a financial value on what they do.
We also get into undercharging, overdelivering because you feel guilty about what you’ve charged, and one question from Holly that I’ll definitely be taking away from this conversation: why not me?
What you’ll learn in this episode:
How your relationship with money can influence the decisions you make in your business without you realising it
Why struggling to see the value in what you do can affect what you charge – and how much you give in return
How understanding your own patterns and beliefs around money can help you make decisions with more confidence
About Holly Dannhauser
Holly Dannhauser is the founder of Moon & Mountain, a strategic consultancy and coaching practice built on one belief: when purpose-driven people are truly clear on where they're going, and confident enough to back themselves, they become an unstoppable force for good.
As a strategist and an accredited Money Archetypes coach, Holly connects the moon – your inner world, your relationship with money and self-worth – with the mountain – the external world of strategy, direction and planning.
Address both, and you have the clarity and confidence to build something meaningful on your terms.
Connect with, and follow Holly
Visit the Moon & Mountain website
Connect with Holly on LinkedIn
Do Holly’s Free Money Archetypes assessment
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Want to be a guest?
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Chapters
00:00:00 - Introducing Holly Dannhauser and Moon & Mountain
00:02:35 - Holly's Journey to Self-Employment and Money Realisations
00:08:23 - Why Money Mindset Holds Us Back: Tricky, Sticky, Icky
00:12:57 - Unpacking Complex Money Relationships and Self-Worth
00:17:49 - How Understanding Money Changed My Business Decisions
00:26:36 - Exploring Money Personalities: Accumulator, Connector, Romantic
00:41:49 - Valuing Creative Work: Overcoming Undercharging Guilt
00:50:50 - How Money Archetypes Transform Business and Life Decisions
00:57:12 - Overcoming Barriers and Embracing Your Unique Path
01:02:21 - Learn More About Moon & Mountain and Holly's Work
Transcript
Fliss Lee (00:00)
Hi Holly, it's great to have you here.
Holly Dannhauser (00:02)
Hello, Fliss, it's lovely to be here.
Fliss Lee (00:06)
So, we get stuck into our conversation, can you please let everybody know who you are and what you do?
Holly Dannhauser (00:12)
Yes. Hi everyone, I'm Holly Danhauser. I'm the founder of Moon and Mountain. I work with people and teams on the things that are getting in the way of the impact that they're really capable of. The mountain is everything external. That's your strategy, your direction, the climb, the things that you're trying to work towards. And I also work on the moon, which is everything internal. And that's your confidence, your relationship with money.
and what you quietly believe you deserve. And most support touches one or the other of those things and my work lives across both of them because I feel like the two together are what is actually going to get you where you're trying to go.
Fliss Lee (00:56)
Nice. Yeah, I heard Holly do a talk and it was really fascinating and I was like, she must be a guest on my podcast. So
Holly Dannhauser (01:05)
that's very kind.
Fliss Lee (01:07)
yeah, it's a joy to have you here today. So, Holly, like, how did you get to doing this today?
Holly Dannhauser (01:15)
So my work history is I've been a strategist most
Fliss Lee (01:18)
Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (01:19)
of my career and mainly within the healthcare and charity sectors. So what that really means is I've been working across organizations and within the teams that power those organizations to help people get
Fliss Lee (01:31)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (01:32)
really clear on what they're trying to achieve, why they exist, how they are going to work towards those goals, whether they're actually making progress.
and
Fliss Lee (01:42)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (01:42)
also to nurture the relationships that are needed to make the progress that they're trying to achieve. So yeah, I've done that for the last sort of 15 years. And like I say, that's been mainly helping people really get clear on where they're trying to go and build a plan that helps them track their progress and keeps them sort of on track really.
Fliss Lee (02:05)
Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (02:06)
And then in 2021,
amidst the pandemic, I decided that I would leave my very, very safe, very secure public sector job with a good salary, regular income,
Fliss Lee (02:21)
Hehehehe
Holly Dannhauser (02:22)
which a lot of people told me was a brave choice, but quite honestly, I felt like it was a natural next step or maybe not natural, maybe that's the wrong word. It felt like a needed next step for me. I felt like I needed something else.
Fliss Lee (02:38)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (02:39)
I wanted to have more of direct impact rather than being sort of maybe a bit more behind the scenes or a bit detached from where good health was created and good progress was happening.
So I went self-employed in 2021 and set up Moon and Mountain and very quickly realized that my relationship with money was not in a position to support me.
towards my own strategic goals, my own plan that I had for myself. So I can tell you a little bit more about that if you'd like.
Fliss Lee (03:10)
Wow. Yeah,
I'd love to hear about that because I think a lot of us struggle with money-related things being self-employed.
Holly Dannhauser (03:23)
So I can pinpoint the exact moment that I had this, what I describe as a money wake up call, that moment where
Fliss Lee (03:29)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (03:30)
some of your audience might recognise this in themselves, some might not yet, but it might still be coming. And a money wake up call is a moment in time and usually for a specific experience, and it might be a series of experiences where you realise that how you think, feel and behave about money and your own sense of worth.
is holding you back. And I had my own experience of this, having no knowledge about this, by the way, that I hadn't even thought about this ever in my life.
Fliss Lee (04:00)
You
Holly Dannhauser (04:03)
But I was having a conversation with someone in my network, and bearing in mind I'd worked in strategy in health for a long, time. And someone who was in my network found out that I was leaving my job and going out on my own and was setting up Moon and Mountain.
and approached me and said, I've got something that you might be interested in, might be a bit of work for you.
Fliss Lee (04:25)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (04:26)
Let's have a chat. And I spent the run up to that conversation not even thinking about the work that he might be offering me or might have that potentially was on the table. I spent the preparation of that conversation worrying about the moment that he was going to ask me the inevitable question about how much are you going to charge me? What's your fee?
Fliss Lee (04:48)
Wow.
Holly Dannhauser (04:49)
So I outsourced that decision to one of my friends who was also my accountant and I said, what do I say? He's going to ask me about this. What do I say? And she did some sums for me. I went into that conversation, the inevitable happened, and he said, what's your fee? And I said, well, I don't really know. And I've asked my friend and she's told me this and that's the equivalent to my previous salary. And he went, yeah, I'm not paying you that. I'll offer you this instead. And I went, okay, thanks very much. And...
That's a bit of an extreme caricature of what actually happened. But
Fliss Lee (05:19)
Yes, yay.
Holly Dannhauser (05:21)
the feeling underneath
Fliss Lee (05:23)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (05:23)
was the money wake up call. I left that conversation with such an acute awareness that I felt awful. In the run
up to
Fliss Lee (05:33)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (05:33)
it, I was worried about it. In the moment, I just wanted the ground to swallow me whole. And afterwards, I felt like I hadn't quite got what I went in there for.
Fliss Lee (05:44)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (05:44)
And...
The whole experience for many of those different reasons just left me feeling really emotionally drained. And I thought, I cannot feel like this every single time I have a conversation about money with a potential client. That is not how a business, a supportive, easeful business feels.
Fliss Lee (06:06)
Mm. Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (06:08)
So I was like, I think I've got an issue with money. I think I might have to do something about this.
So that was the moment where I started looking into this for myself, started doing a lot of work on my own relationship with money, found it so transformational and I thought this can't just be me, this can't be me that is being held back by these emotions. So I found a training program, put myself through it so that I'm now qualified as a money archetypes coach and that adds to all of my experience as a strategist, so helping you get clear on your plans.
I'm also a qualified leadership coach and this is just like the missing piece of the puzzle for me. It's all the stuff that's going on inside that
Fliss Lee (06:50)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (06:51)
really is make or break as to whether you get towards your goals or not.
Fliss Lee (06:55)
Yeah, well it sounds like it's been a huge transformation for you.
Holly Dannhauser (07:00)
Mm.
Fliss Lee (07:01)
of us know we have money things so I'm really interested that you just didn't I guess being employed you probably never really realized that it was a thing for you. How do you see it holding a lot of people back in their businesses or careers and how do you see that?
Holly Dannhauser (07:26)
Yes, do sadly and for many people just like me it's not necessarily something that we're conscious of because
Fliss Lee (07:34)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (07:35)
well there's a few reasons. The first is lack of education and lack of know support to consider this in our formative years where it sort of starts to have an impact on us more so you know a lot of our relationship
Fliss Lee (07:48)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (07:48)
with money is formed before we even have our own money.
And then we start to come into having our own money or having to be responsible with our own money and make decisions that have a financial or just wider impact on our lives. And we don't have the language, we don't have the knowledge, we don't have the confidence to sort of process and understand what's really going on. Other things that are at play, and this won't come as any surprise and people might be waiting for me to say this, but it's the taboo around money and some
Fliss Lee (08:19)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (08:19)
of the things that we
And some of things that we are sort of taught consciously or unconsciously to believe and to act around money. So the notion that money is kind of a dirty subject, you know, it's taboo, we shouldn't be talking about it. It's a bit impolite to talk about it. It's certainly impolite to ask people about their money situation or their financial situation. So a lot of these things keep us quiet about money.
But that's where money fears thrive. They absolutely come out to play in a context of silence. When we don't have spaces to talk about things and for that to feel normal, we internalize and again, that moon element of the business, we internalize, we keep things within, we squash things down and avoid or, and I'm not saying this in any kind of critical way because that is just.
and inevitable sometimes of how things are for us. So yes, to answer your question, I do see a lot of people struggling with this, but sometimes it's completely unconscious and things just feel harder than they should. And I talk about this and this is the talk that I think you heard, Fliss, when I was giving this to a networking group was around ditching the ick.
Fliss Lee (09:47)
and
Holly Dannhauser (09:47)
And
I describe money for many people feeling tricky, sticky or icky. So these are kind of the symptoms, if you like, or the signs of if you have a complex or complicated relationship with money that might be holding you back. So things can feel tricky. That means they just feel really hard, very complicated, not quite sure what's going on. And you might hear people say, I'm just no good with money. They kind of discount themselves from even
Confidently interacting with it or using it in a way that feels good because they've taken on this I'm just no good with it. I'm no good with it. I don't know
Fliss Lee (10:22)
you
Holly Dannhauser (10:22)
what's going on and it just feels really hard Sticky is when you've kind of got to a point where things with money feel a bit Well bit stuck. They you know, that might be that you've hit an income ceiling. You can't quite seem to break through or
something about money just feels like it's always the same way. It's always this no matter what I try and do it's always that pattern. It's always that thing
Fliss Lee (10:47)
Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (10:48)
seems to happen. And icky is when things just feel just really awkward, embarrassing, uncomfortable. There's something going on with money that just doesn't feel very good for you. And that
That is the experience that I described in that conversation with the person that had some work for me. That the money, ick, that was absolutely what I was experiencing. I want to hide away from this. I want to run away. I don't want to face this conversation. I don't want
to talk
Fliss Lee (11:23)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (11:23)
about it. I don't want to look at it. And that's what can lead you to that sort of sense of, just this feels horrible.
Fliss Lee (11:32)
Did you discover when you started looking into it for yourself, did you discover that the reason why you felt that it was because you just weren't used to talking about money? Is that why? Obviously probably more complex than that, was that one of the things?
Holly Dannhauser (11:48)
yeah.
Yes, it is always more complex than you think it is. And
Fliss Lee (11:53)
Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (11:54)
that's part of, that's part of this process, if you like. And I describe it as a process because it's an ongoing relationship. It's not a, I'll look into that. I'll read a book or I'll, you know, have a, have a bit of an explore and that's the end of it. It's, it's like any other relationship in your life. requires.
ongoing nurturing, understanding of what's going on. It requires some things that might feel quite out of your comfort zone or things that you might, that might, the relationship requires that aren't necessarily things that you feel naturally come to you easily. So yeah, it's definitely a process. It's definitely really quite complex. And the work that I do with people helps you.
untangle some of those things and I use that language very deliberately because it is a complex situation and it's made up, your relationship with money is made up of many many different factors that have formed
Fliss Lee (12:55)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (12:55)
over a long period of time. Like I said before, often before we even have any of our own money to speak of or to know that we're dealing with, we often have absorbed or consumed things about money, learned things about money and about ourselves with or without it.
or about people who have or don't have it. And all of those judgments really, external criticisms and internal beliefs shape our decision making every single day. So to answer your question about was it was one of the things, the fact that we just don't talk about it. Yes, that was a
I would say that that was an environmental factor, a context
Fliss Lee (13:42)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (13:43)
that doesn't help. But the reasons that I felt the ick were probably more deeper rooted, more within
Fliss Lee (13:51)
okay.
Holly Dannhauser (13:54)
my experience, my life kind of patterns, what I'd learned growing up and as I'd made my way through life and my career and things that I'd done or not done. So...
As an example, one of the things that I realised when I started doing this work was, and it was a bit of a light bulb moment actually, and there's many of those when you start doing the work on your relationship with money, but one of my light bulbs was realising that having worked mainly in the public sector, with a little bit of time in the private and charity sectors, but mainly within NHS, local government roles, both locally and nationally.
I had this realisation that I had not just allowed, but I'd almost invited other people to tell me my worth. And
Fliss Lee (14:45)
Mmm, interesting.
Holly Dannhauser (14:47)
for those of your audience that have worked in public sector, and many have probably, many may not have, but the context is you kind of, you get put on a pay band and everyone knows what everyone else's pay grade is and it doesn't matter how hard you work.
Fliss Lee (15:04)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (15:04)
you can't just secure a promotion by working harder or proving yourself or taking on more projects or achieving way beyond what you were expected to. You only progress if you apply for another job or if you move to a different role. So essentially I realized that my pattern was that I'd been sort of asking other people, know, am I ready for this? Should I go for that? Should I be doing this?
and accepting other people's opinion of me as the definition of my value rather than I know that I'm doing all this and I know that I'm achieving these things or I know that I've got some skills there and I'm ready to do that next thing or I'm capable of doing that next thing or even quite uncomfortably at the time I deserve that next step. I was
Fliss Lee (15:54)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (15:54)
just waiting for somebody else to tell me.
you're worthy of this, you're ready for this or not as the case may be. So yeah.
Fliss Lee (16:05)
That's so interesting isn't it? We don't
Holly Dannhauser (16:08)
Hmm.
Fliss Lee (16:08)
think about how these things really affect us. They come from other factors. Nothing to do with us. It's other things that shape us and our experience with money. Holly, what did it change? When you started, you've obviously done a lot of work on this and you mentioned the money archetypes which I'd love to chat to you about in a minute.
But what did it change for you really kind of understanding your money mindset and being able to, I mean change it?
Holly Dannhauser (16:46)
Yes,
yeah for sure. And it's definitely a change of money mindset, but I don't want anyone to get the impression that this is like you flick a switch and you go from feeling one thing to feeling something else. Like I said before, it's
Fliss Lee (16:56)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (16:58)
definitely a process. I'm still and will always be on that process, in that process, on that journey towards a healthier, more confident relationship with money. And like I said before,
Fliss Lee (17:10)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (17:11)
it's a relationship, it's a dynamic, it requires that ongoing attention.
What it changed for me, and I suppose to answer that question fully might take some time because I would need to describe
Fliss Lee (17:22)
Hehehehe
Holly Dannhauser (17:23)
how you'd need to know how it all felt before, which is complex and very,
Fliss Lee (17:27)
Yeah, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (17:28)
you know, lots of stuff and how it feels now. But to give you a flavour of some of the things that have changed. I'll give you a couple of examples. So when I first went self-employed, because I felt very much that
I felt like I had to leave my job. I felt like I was seeking something else, like there wasn't anywhere else for me to go. So I was like, actually, I felt a certain element of, there was a lot of push factors, if you like, that felt I had to go. So because of that, I was like, right, I'm absolutely determined to make the same amount of money that I did when I was employed. And I've since learned that that's actually a little bit of a money ceiling.
And this is really common for people that are leaving employment and moving to self-employment or having your own business or freelancing, is that there's kind of this notion that for some people there's a belief that you can't make more on your own than you did when you're in an organization with an HR department and a lot of people and lots of things going on. And I certainly set off.
with something that felt like a goal and felt like a real ambition to match
Fliss Lee (18:40)
Mmm. Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (18:43)
my salary. But I since realized, I was like, actually, that's kind of a, that's a bit of a, that's a sticky, that's putting a sticking point on, it's putting a
Fliss Lee (18:51)
Wow.
Holly Dannhauser (18:52)
ceiling on my income. So I've definitely worked to remove that. And I do a lot of work on actually, there is no limit. That doesn't have to be a limit. Limits are sort of self-imposed things often.
Fliss Lee (19:07)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (19:08)
So that was something that I realized very early on that I worked to change. And then in terms of my own patterns of behavior, and this is where we can talk a little bit more about the archetypes, because I learned that my pattern of behavior, which has been formed by lots of different experiences through my life,
Fliss Lee (19:30)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (19:31)
is one of fearing losing money or not having enough money.
So what that results in is a set of behaviors that mean that I tend to like a lot of control. I like being into the financial details. I like to know what's coming in, what's going out. I really like to be finding the best deal. I love a bargain.
Fliss Lee (19:56)
You
Holly Dannhauser (19:57)
I research things a lot so that I know that
Fliss Lee (20:00)
Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (20:01)
I'm getting the best value.
These things all sound great in terms of managing a business with a lot of attention, real eye on the detail. These are all things that you think, wow, yeah, that would really help a successful business. But where it doesn't help is feeling like I want to do everything myself. I want to control things tightly. I don't like to outsource or invest in people to do things for me.
Fliss Lee (20:32)
Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (20:32)
And
that was really going to hold me back. You know, that is a one way ticket to exhaustion, quite frankly, trying to do everything on your own, thinking that, you know, setting such high standards for myself, that is a pressured environment. That is a busy environment. And being aware of those things means that I can be more conscious about the decisions I take that help me relax, that help me find more
Fliss Lee (20:59)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (20:59)
ease in my business decisions.
and ultimately let me just loosen my grip on things. And that's not just the finances, that's the decisions, that's every decision in my business that comes
Fliss Lee (21:11)
Wow.
Holly Dannhauser (21:12)
back to that pattern of behavior of tight control and wanting to be in the detail and setting high standards for myself.
Fliss Lee (21:18)
That's really interesting, isn't it? How it really does impact every area, not just the finances side of things. And I think that's what
Holly Dannhauser (21:26)
Absolutely.
Fliss Lee (21:27)
we often forget when it comes to our money stuff that's going on,
Holly Dannhauser (21:31)
Mm-hmm.
Fliss Lee (21:31)
of how wide-ranging it can affect us. Can you give us any examples of how outside of the money stuff,
how it can affect what we're doing in our home?
Holly Dannhauser (21:42)
Yes,
So like I said before, My archetype is someone that likes to have that control, likes to be in the details, very financially savvy, likes a bargain.
Fliss Lee (21:55)
You
Holly Dannhauser (21:56)
but has that sort level of control and yet I've sort of outsourced my worth to other people.
Fliss Lee (22:05)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (22:08)
So despite all of that, I'd still allowed and got into this pattern where I was sort of hoping that other people would tell me my value. And what I'm noticing is that that
pattern shows up elsewhere. I do have a sense of, or I have had more so, a sense of people pleasing. So my default is that I sort of want other people to be okay first.
Fliss Lee (22:38)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (22:39)
So, and that can present in all sorts of ways. know, if we're, I don't know, it be I'm going out for dinner with friends and I want other people to choose where we go for a meal because, you know, I want them to be happy. Or it might be that
because of that outsourcing of value element, has sometimes meant that I've kept my own value quite small and I've struggled to talk about the value that I provide to other people through the work that I do. So even though I know that I'm doing great stuff and I know the impact it can have, I've had to do a lot of work on becoming
more comfortable with being visible, with developing my personal brand, with showing up online, with... And I've never had a problem with public speaking. That's
Fliss Lee (23:29)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (23:29)
something that I've, well, that's something I've honed since being a teenager.
Fliss Lee (23:34)
You
Holly Dannhauser (23:35)
Having been a very, very shy child, I've had to sort of work on that. And now that's okay. But when it comes to the bit that, sort of at the end that goes...
And here's what I do and how I can help you. I've really had to work on that because that element of, you know, that's me sort of having to claim my worth and having to claim
Fliss Lee (23:56)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (23:57)
my own value in the world does not come as naturally to me as it will do to some of the other archetypes in those, in that eight
Fliss Lee (24:05)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (24:06)
archetype model. And again, because I now have my own business,
that is more of a challenge than it will have been in a career or an employed role when
Fliss Lee (24:18)
Hmm, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (24:19)
really the only times you have to do that are when you're in an interview or in kind of your annual, what's word, when you have like your appraisal thank you.
Fliss Lee (24:29)
Appraisal, your appraisal. Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (24:31)
Yeah, and they say, well, what did you do this year? And I went, well, I kind of did these things, I don't know.
Fliss Lee (24:35)
Hehehehehe
Holly Dannhauser (24:36)
If you're running your own business, you've got to be your own cheerleader all of the time.
And
Fliss Lee (24:41)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (24:42)
so that element of showing up, being visible and championing myself is something that I would say has had to be a big part of the development work I've done for myself over the last few years. And the end product of that is putting a financial figure to that value. So it all comes back to value and money in the end, really.
Fliss Lee (25:08)
Yeah,
yeah, it's actually really hard, isn't it, when you're trying to put a financial figure on your value as well. so I've done the archetypes before and I cannot for the life of me remember what mine is.
Just
Holly Dannhauser (25:21)
Mm-hmm.
Fliss Lee (25:21)
from you talking, we sound very similar. But I'd love
Holly Dannhauser (25:24)
Hahaha
Fliss Lee (25:27)
to just chat about the archetypes and
Holly Dannhauser (25:30)
Mm-hmm.
Fliss Lee (25:30)
understand kind of a bit.
Holly Dannhauser (25:32)
Yes.
Fliss Lee (25:33)
You
Holly Dannhauser (25:35)
Well, interestingly, finding out my archetype was the first
Fliss Lee (25:39)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (25:40)
thing I did when I, you know, when I had that like ground swallow me whole, please. Like I just don't know what's going on. When I had that
Fliss Lee (25:46)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (25:47)
experience and I started looking into like, I think I feel a bit odd about money. What do I do? The money archetypes assessment was one of the first things that I found and
having something, having a pattern of behavior identified.
and a different language to use to help me understand what was going on. I cannot tell you what a relief it felt. I felt so seen. I felt I understood myself better. I felt like I wasn't alone because it was clearly a pattern of behavior that other people experience. Like you've just said
Fliss Lee (26:22)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (26:22)
there, you can recognize some similarities and in a shared experience, we find some comfort, I think.
Fliss Lee (26:28)
Yes, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (26:30)
So I would absolutely...
encourage everyone to find out what their patterns of behaviors are as they are expressed through these eight different money personalities. And what they do is essentially we all have our very unique experiences of money, of self-worth, of what wealth abundance or lack means and feels like to us.
We all have our own set of fears around money and resources and I should probably be really clear about this when I work with people on their money mindset. You could easily replace the word money with time, energy, effort. I want to be really
Fliss Lee (27:20)
you
Holly Dannhauser (27:21)
clear that just because I'm using the word money there is a whole range of things that are about our internal
resources that we give to things.
Fliss Lee (27:32)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (27:32)
Because for many people, they don't necessarily want more money, they want more time or more calm or more freedom. So it's a whole range of things. Anyway, I digress. The archetypes
Fliss Lee (27:43)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (27:44)
essentially are a way of not boxing you in, they're not a label, they're not about trying to make your experience smaller or to fit
Fliss Lee (27:55)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (27:55)
in with everybody else. They are, are
They are a way of helping you rationalise, understand and process some of the things that you may have experienced through your life and give you a way of understanding them with a language, with a shared language that allows you to explore that, talk about that and ultimately consciously choose what you do about it with more awareness and more confidence really.
Fliss Lee (28:28)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (28:28)
So there
are eight different money personalities. They express patterns of behavior around money in ways that, as I say, make us more able to appreciate both our strengths around money, our gifts when it comes to decision-making with money, but also, as I say, our resources more broadly, but also give us an awareness which many of us, including me when I started this work, had no consciousness of.
which is the blind spots or the things that can sort of feel like banana skins, you know, the things that trip us up,
Fliss Lee (29:04)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (29:05)
where we're trying our best, are doing what we feel is natural and right to us, but ultimately there may be some self-sabotage going on there. There may be some fear-based decision-making that we're just not conscious of. And there may be some things that we just don't enjoy. We just don't enjoy. They're not the things that light us up. And the more
Fliss Lee (29:23)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (29:24)
we're aware of those, the more you can make decisions.
based on what comes naturally to you, what feels good to you, and the other stuff, outsource it. Don't do it. Don't build your business in a way that relies heavily on those things that aren't
Fliss Lee (29:38)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (29:38)
part of your natural, easeful, confident abilities. That it gives you such a platform for making more informed, conscious decisions that allow you to do business, career, life on your terms in ways that actually feel good.
Fliss Lee (29:57)
Yes, love this.
Holly Dannhauser (29:59)
you
Fliss Lee (30:01)
Is it really common for people to just ignore all money stuff? You know, if it makes you just feel so awful, is the most common thing for people to just go, I'm just not going to think about that.
Holly Dannhauser (30:14)
Again, it depends on what type of archetype you are. So your money personality
Fliss Lee (30:16)
Mmm. Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (30:19)
will indicate whether that is more likely to be something you do. So again, using me as an example, as an accumulator, that's my dominant money archetype. And we are a blend of all eight, by the way, but my dominant archetype is an accumulator. So as I said before, someone that...
quite enjoys being in the financial details because I like control, I like to know what's going on, I like to know that my money is working hard for me and that I'm using it wisely. So avoidance to me would be very uncomfortable.
Fliss Lee (30:51)
Mmm, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (30:52)
I would be more likely to be overly aware. And by that I mean maybe taking a bit too much attention on it and being a bit
Fliss Lee (31:04)
Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (31:04)
too tightly controlled.
which would express itself as a worry from a different angle, know, what's happening with that? And it would take time and energy from me and worry that may not actually be required. Another one of the archetypes is the connector. The connector really is one of the archetypes that is most likely to devolve their financial decision-making to somebody else, whether that's a
Fliss Lee (31:31)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (31:31)
partner or whether that's a professional that they...
trusted professional that they put their faith in to look after their money for them. But also the connector is the one that's most likely to not really know what's going on with their finances at all. And they can feel quite disempowered by that actually. And again, another one of the archetypes, the romantic, is someone that's so in the present moment, they just love the, they're kind of the pleasure seeker, the one that...
lives
Fliss Lee (32:03)
Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (32:03)
in the moment, doesn't want to worry about the money, doesn't want to do the long-term saving stuff, you know, why would you put money in the bank when it's here to be used, have fun right here, right now? But because of that, can, because romantics can rarely be thinking about their long-term financial stability, the romantics are often the ones that are most likely to say, I'm no good with money. They almost write themselves off, you know, I'm no good with money, I just enjoy it whilst it's here and that's that.
Just from those three examples, you can see how there's a spectrum of avoidance. Some people are kind of anti-avoidance like me. I can be, if I allow myself to be, too much into the detail and not
Fliss Lee (32:43)
Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (32:44)
trusting enough that other people, you know, I have an accountant, but I'm there going, oh, what are you doing? What are you doing? You know, that can be expressed in a difficult, challenging way, just as much as someone that's avoidant because they're letting someone else deal with it or feeling that they...
are no good with money because they're just living in the moment and enjoying themselves a lot and that's affecting their financial security for the longer term. So it's very nuanced, lots of different expressions of this and as I said before everyone is completely unique but how it expresses can be sort of understood better through these patterns of behaviour that the archetypes help us to understand.
Fliss Lee (33:22)
That's really, what you've just said is really interesting. And again, I'm like, oh, maybe I am a key related because I, ever since I've had my business, I mean, I've always, I've always like, know what's going on with my money. I've been pretty good with it. Like I've been traveling and stuff on a budget. But I've always been across like what's going on in my business finances. So that like when COVID happened and all my work dried up.
I
paid myself a bit less but I still managed to keep paying myself because I had like six months worth of money in my business bank account so I was like I'm safe because to me money is safety. But actually what you were saying there about like how that's affected me is like I haven't paid myself what I probably could have paid myself over the years and when I moved to my now accountant...
Tom really helped me understand my money better and gave me the permission to pay myself more. So it's almost like outsourcing to somebody I really trusted. It really helped take that away from me, which I think is what I needed. Because I'm such a trite Yorkshire lass otherwise. just like, I've got to keep money in bank because I might need it for a rainy day. So yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (34:43)
Yeah, and you've said
a few things in there, Fliss, that are so important for you, so revealing for your relationship with money. So first of all, for you, money means safety. And every
Fliss Lee (34:54)
Yes, definitely.
Holly Dannhauser (34:55)
single person, I would really strongly encourage you to answer that question. And it's something I post to all of my clients. It's something I ask at the front of every one of my talks, which is what does money mean to you? Not what you think it should mean or what someone else has told you it is.
What is money for? What meaning have you attached to money? So for you, knowing that money equals safety, that's a really, really important factor for you.
Fliss Lee (35:22)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (35:23)
And it also means if something is, if there's a decision that feels less safe, your natural instinct might be to avoid it or to say no to that. But equally,
for us accumulators, investing
Fliss Lee (35:39)
Mm. Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (35:41)
in things might be, you know, we might need to do that in order to grow or to not be in a ditch at
Fliss Lee (35:48)
Totally.
Holly Dannhauser (35:48)
the end of the week because we're so exhausted. we have to be a lot more conscious with that. And we might need to nurture our nervous system. We might need to soothe ourselves whilst we're making decisions
Fliss Lee (36:02)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (36:03)
that we may perceive to compromise that safety.
experience. We might need to remind ourselves more often that we are safe already because of the work that you've, the groundwork that you've already done or I'm really financially competent and I know I can trust myself so even though this feels a bit risky it's okay like I'm okay I can cope with this.
Fliss Lee (36:25)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (36:25)
That's a very very different experience to someone else who might feel like money is fun, money is taking the gamble you know there's
money's there to be enjoyed or
Fliss Lee (36:40)
Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (36:40)
money is for the experiences in life, money's for today not tomorrow, you know there's there are a whole range of things which is why understanding what's going on for you is exactly what is required to then make sure that every single decision you're taking is made with conscious confidence and maybe some tactics that can soothe you if it feels a little
Fliss Lee (37:03)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (37:04)
bit like
like you're being activated around the tricky, sticky or icky, you know, that might feel really tricky for you to invest in something or to go down a path that feels slightly more risky. Other archetypes would be like, bring it on, this is really good fun. I
Fliss Lee (37:18)
You
Holly Dannhauser (37:19)
love the challenge of taking on a risk. I love seeing the opportunity. That really lights me up. So everyone's different. And the other thing I just wanted to pick up on in relation to what you said was...
You said it was helpful having a trusted person tell you, that give you the permission almost to pay yourself more.
Fliss Lee (37:40)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (37:41)
Again, classic accumulator. Hello, I also see you in this,
Fliss Lee (37:44)
Hehehehehe
Holly Dannhauser (37:48)
which is again, money in the bank, not only equal safety, but probably with accumulators is likely to give you a positive emotional response. Like seeing it there gives
Fliss Lee (37:59)
Yeah, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (38:00)
a positive
emotional reaction. Again, other archetypes get that positive emotional reaction from spending or from having something new or from having a wonderful experience. But for accumulators, the positive emotional reaction can come from the moment an invoice is paid or checking the bank account and seeing stuff in there and you're like, you know, it's really nice. Or when someone offers you a
Fliss Lee (38:21)
Yes. I got money.
Holly Dannhauser (38:25)
discount on something that you were going to buy anyway, you're like, amazing, I got it for cheaper. there's
Fliss Lee (38:29)
Hehehehehe
Holly Dannhauser (38:31)
all these things but the the key word that you said there was trusted because
Fliss Lee (38:36)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (38:38)
accumulators again have that because because we are naturally very capable and very willing to get into the financial details we find ourselves if someone else is going to do that with us or even for us we need to trust them in a way that we trust ourselves
So yeah, having an accountant or any other financial specialist working alongside an accumulator will probably need to be someone that you've built that level of trust with. And just to turn that on its head, by the way, if
Fliss Lee (39:15)
Mm-mm.
Holly Dannhauser (39:16)
your clients are accumulators, so if you're watching
Fliss Lee (39:19)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (39:20)
this or listening to this and you're thinking you might be selling a product or a service to an accumulator or, know,
the different archetypes need different things from you. Yeah, so
Fliss Lee (39:30)
Lucky them. Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (39:34)
there's more trust that needs to be built with an accumulator than maybe some of the other archetypes for them to say, yeah, I want to work with you.
Fliss Lee (39:41)
Yeah, and actually before, so I left my previous accountant and had another one briefly before finding Tom and what I was promised wasn't what I was delivered. Probably a
Holly Dannhauser (39:56)
Bye!
Fliss Lee (39:56)
very capable accountant but I felt very rocky and then obviously I switched and it was all good but that just wasn't, it wasn't good for me. It was too
Holly Dannhauser (40:06)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (40:07)
stressful so yeah, I totally.
I can totally see how that works. good, it's so fascinating. Anyway, let's stop talking about me.
Holly Dannhauser (40:14)
you
Fliss Lee (40:15)
Holly can help me out off the podcast. So
Holly Dannhauser (40:18)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (40:21)
yeah, it's so interesting. how do you, I'm just thinking about, so I work with a lot of creatives. I have a lot of creatives probably listening to this. And I think it can be really hard when.
You
go through schooling and you're almost taught this narrative that creativity is a hobby.
And then, and I really see, I work with a lot of people who feel like what they do isn't worthwhile. It's like to do with the value of what they do and then find it difficult to charge for that creativity. And often a lot of the work we do is around, it is really valuable. Creativity is so valuable. if some,
Holly Dannhauser (41:05)
Mm-hmm.
Fliss Lee (41:06)
if, how does that?
How does not seeing that value affect pricing? And can you give any tips on where to start when it comes to if you recognize yourself in that, I can't put the prices up type situation.
Holly Dannhauser (41:25)
Yeah, and it's something I see a lot
Fliss Lee (41:27)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (41:29)
because like you, many of my clients are, in fact, all of my clients, I would put them in a descriptor of purpose led, purpose driven,
Fliss Lee (41:40)
Yeah, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (41:41)
whether they're people working in wellness, creativity, charity sector. I would say every single one of my clients, and this is because it aligns with my values too, I want to support
people who are trying to make a difference in the world
Fliss Lee (41:55)
you
Holly Dannhauser (41:56)
and are doing great things. I do see that a lot. see a lot of people struggling to and experiencing that tricky icky thing actually of just really finding it hard to say a bit like what I was talking about before. I do this. This is how it helped. And this is the value of it. And one of the most common
money mindset
Fliss Lee (42:22)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (42:23)
blocks is when people say, but I just love what I do. It's not really about the money, is it? yeah,
Fliss Lee (42:30)
It's a hobby. Yeah, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (42:32)
and well, you know, it's, I just love what I do and I'm making a difference. And I see this so often in the, like I say, in the wellness industry and in the creative industries. And it's like this apologetic approach that somehow
making money or putting a price to your service somehow undermines the value that you're delivering as in the impact that you're making. You you're doing a wonderful thing. You and your big heart are genuinely making a difference to people. And somehow along the line, you've picked up a story that says, but charging for that is wrong. Charging for that is greedy or it's...
somehow dishonest or is undermining the things that you're trying to achieve if you then charge people for it. Add that into exactly what you've said, Fliss, about the notion that arts and creativity are just like the nice-to-haves, the kind
Fliss Lee (43:35)
Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (43:36)
of bolt-on things, which I completely disagree with, as you do. And again, a lot of my work in the healthcare...
sector has been around arts and health. So I've seen firsthand the absolute, you know, essential benefits that come from creativity and health combined. Anyway, that's a, I could get on my soapbox about that. But there, so there's a number of things. There's the societal things, and then there's the inner things that are making,
Fliss Lee (44:07)
Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (44:09)
the two things combined together are charging for this is somehow wrong.
And the impact of that is that obviously it leads people to either undercharge or if they do put a price on it that is relevant and reasonable in relation to the value they're delivering, what they can then do is start feeling guilty about that. So they can then over deliver, add more things on.
Fliss Lee (44:36)
Overdeliver, yep, yep.
Holly Dannhauser (44:39)
well, you that feels quite uncomfortable that I've asked someone for that. So what I'm going to do is
I'm going to throw in that freebie and I'm going to add that. And actually, I know it's an hour long session, but I'll give you an hour and a half or whatever it is. It's like secretly sneaking in more things, which ultimately brings your value, the value that you're getting, the return on what you're investing into that person or into that service is lowering because you're adding additional things into it.
Fliss Lee (45:06)
you
Holly Dannhauser (45:07)
All of these things are versions of kind of sabotaging your own income.
or undermining your instability or giving away more of your resources, time, energy or money so that that leaves you more depleted than maybe you'd hoped for. In terms of the archetypes I see in creative industries and again this is a sweeping statement so please don't take this as kind of the truth entirely
Fliss Lee (45:36)
Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (45:37)
but I often see quite a lot of nurturers and a lot of alchemists.
Fliss Lee (45:41)
totally.
Holly Dannhauser (45:43)
So nurturers are the ones that just want everyone else to be okay. They want to give, give, give, give, give. They want to look after. They are very selflessly driven to make a difference.
Fliss Lee (45:55)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (45:55)
And the alchemist are, if you're an alchemist archetype, you have a tendency to be very strongly advocating for social justice. So you want things to be fair and equal in the world. And if they aren't, that can feel quite uncomfortable.
So alchemists want to make social change happen, but they can struggle to put a value to their efforts to making that happen because it almost feels like
Fliss Lee (46:20)
you
Holly Dannhauser (46:21)
it's adding to the injustice or somehow that's unfair in itself. So I see a lot of those two archetypes in the wellness space and in the creative industry space. You asked...
I mean, there's lots of things that can help. I, you know, if I'm working with an individual, obviously,
Fliss Lee (46:39)
Yes, where could this start?
Holly Dannhauser (46:42)
yeah, something that can really help to start with. The first thing is I would say really start to reconnect with your strengths and to really think about what, what is it that you are giving, but also what is that requiring of you in order to show up for your clients? So again, I've talked a lot about resources, not just money.
But what is it requiring of you to show up in the way that you are delivering that amazing value and that amazing support that you're giving to people and working alongside people with? What does that demand of you? And how does that affect what price or what return you need in order to satisfy and to give you that, I suppose, fair?
return on the resources and the endeavors that you are giving to your work. Something that can also help if you're in this space of kind of struggling to put a value to your worth and a financial value to your worth is to answer the question, why not me?
Fliss Lee (47:57)
Ooh, I love that.
Holly Dannhauser (47:59)
sometimes people are thinking, well, what, you know,
as I say, especially if you're someone that's listening to this and thinking, yeah, I have had those thoughts of that's a bit greedy or, you know, I should be doing this because it's the right thing to do or it's the good thing to do or I'm helping people. Often it could be like, well, underneath that is a sense of not deserving a financial return for your efforts and your input to be rewarded financially. So I want you to answer the question, why not me? You know, there is money out there.
Fliss Lee (48:30)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (48:31)
why not, why not you? And then maybe
Fliss Lee (48:35)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (48:36)
answer the question, why me? You know, why it should and could be me? What are you delivering? What are you providing? What is the impact you're creating in the world? So again, those two things, connecting with your strengths and then really interrogating that deserving element that might be underneath.
running the show on this one, which is about, you know, why not you? And yes, why you? Why do you deserve this? And what's it for?
Fliss Lee (49:10)
That's really interesting because I always ask people I work with, you? I ask why all the time,
Holly Dannhauser (49:16)
Mm.
Fliss Lee (49:17)
but why not me is a
Holly Dannhauser (49:19)
Mm-hmm.
Fliss Lee (49:20)
great question to ask.
Holly Dannhauser (49:22)
Mm.
Fliss Lee (49:22)
for later, thank you.
Holly Dannhauser (49:24)
You
Fliss Lee (49:25)
So I guess like if people are thinking I don't know where to start with this or what's one thing they can, what can they start noticing maybe this week to give them a little bit more awareness of their money buying set.
Holly Dannhauser (49:38)
Okay, so much like myself and my own experience, I would absolutely encourage
Fliss Lee (49:42)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (49:43)
you to start with finding out your archetype.
Fliss Lee (49:45)
Hmm
Holly Dannhauser (49:46)
So I am trained in the archetype model, which means that I have access to the full assessment tool and I have made that free for everyone, so very consciously. So it's on my website and you can take the assessment
And this is not one of those things where it's like answer a few questions and it spits out a generic, you know, what flavor soup are you or what pizza topping are you? You know, it's not one of those
Fliss Lee (50:15)
Hehehehe
Holly Dannhauser (50:16)
like fun and frivolous things which have their place, but that's not what this is. It's 75 questions that really ask you to interrogate your feelings, your thoughts and your behaviors around money, but also around your resources. It
Fliss Lee (50:29)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (50:30)
takes less than 10 minutes to do.
I would really encourage you to answer it instinctively. Don't overthink it, don't allow this to step in with what you think
Fliss Lee (50:36)
Mm. Mm. Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (50:40)
you should say or what you think is right or wrong societally. From that you will find out your blend of eight archetypes and you'll get some summary information from me about your top archetype as well. And that is your first step because that information...
will tell you your strengths, your gifts, and some of your blind spots that you can start using straight away to make more conscious decisions. And honestly, this will show up everywhere in how you brand yourself, how you market yourself, how you are talking with people, whether that's professionally or personally, the conversations that you're avoiding, the patterns of behavior that might feel like they're keeping you safe, but might also feel like they are holding you back. This is just your first...
much like it was for me, can only talk from my own experience and what I see in my clients, but it is like you start cracking the code on what's really going on with your decision making. And if you can stretch into your alignment of what feels good and be aware of the things that holding you back, that is 100 % your best starting point to building a career, a business or your whole life in ways that actually feel great for you.
Fliss Lee (51:54)
I'll put the link to that quiz in the show notes for anybody who wants to
Holly Dannhauser (51:58)
brilliant.
Fliss Lee (51:59)
do that. I am going to do it straight away after we get off this record. Holly, wait, I've got so many more questions I want to ask you, so maybe we'll have to do another one of these some day. found it...
Fascinating talking to you because it's really interesting. I think it's also really interesting to understand that not everybody else's money archetypes are the same. So for me, I know when I first came across the archetypes a few years ago, it helped me understand that just because I feel a certain way about money, somebody who potentially wants to work with me may have completely different feelings. Do you see that awareness helps people as well?
wider
awareness can help when you're running a business.
Holly Dannhauser (52:45)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Fliss Lee (52:46)
Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (52:49)
And you added on at the end that when you're running your business, and I would say, and, because
Fliss Lee (52:52)
Well, it's all the time. Yes.
Holly Dannhauser (52:56)
when you have an awareness of your own archetype, but also the eight, it's like a bit
Fliss Lee (53:02)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (53:03)
of a framework really. You'll see them showing up in your partner, your friends, your family members, your clients,
Fliss Lee (53:10)
and
Holly Dannhauser (53:12)
your teammates.
you know, and I do a lot of work with organizations to help them understand the different archetypes at play in their collective
Fliss Lee (53:21)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (53:22)
decision making. I do some work with fundraisers and people working in income generation roles to help them understand how their own asking for money is affected by their relationship with money. But also how they can tailor their asks to different types of donor or client based on what
Different archetypes need to hear, see, feel, and experience when they're interacting with an organization or a company to make them feel comfortable to say, yeah, I want to work with you, or I want to donate to you, or I want to buy something from you. yes, you have that old saying knowledge is power is certainly true. But in this case, it's not just about power. It's about
absolute alignment of what you're doing. And we are making
Fliss Lee (54:17)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (54:17)
decisions, I don't know the stat, I'm terrible at remembering statistics, but there's some
Fliss Lee (54:21)
You
Holly Dannhauser (54:22)
quite outrageous statistic about how many decisions we're making every single moment of the day, basically.
Fliss Lee (54:28)
Really?
Holly Dannhauser (54:30)
And we're constantly deciding what to do, where to invest our time, our energy, our resources, our own money.
And all of those decisions will come back to the patterns of behaviour, the beliefs that you have and ultimately what you've learned about money as you've grown up and as you've gone through life. And the more that we can really, really understand ourselves, the more that all of those decisions become our decisions and not ones that are made on autopilot, not ones that are made because other people have told us what to do or because we feel obligated in some way to meet a societal norm.
or to follow a path that someone else has set for us. When we have this knowledge, and this is why I feel it's so fundamental to my work, that's when you can really start to blend your strategy, your goals, your ambition, what actually you want from life and work with the internal stuff, which is about what really lights you up, what makes you feel good, what allows you and enables you to get closer to your dreams in life. And those two things together.
The sweet spot is in the middle of those and that's where your unique path forward starts to emerge and becomes clear and that's what I help people to find.
Fliss Lee (55:45)
Wonderful. I'm going to go away and ask myself the question, why not me? I already feel like that's going to be a very interesting one. Thank you so much for chatting and sharing a bit about your own money experience with us. I think it's really useful to hear other people's experiences and understand, you know, that it's not just you who has.
Who feels tricky when it comes to money?
Holly Dannhauser (56:14)
it.
Fliss Lee (56:16)
Before we close today Holly, I've got a couple of questions that I ask everybody and I'm really interested to see what your answers are to these. So the first one is, in your experience, what's the biggest barrier to somebody doing things their way?
Holly Dannhauser (56:35)
At the risk of repeating myself, which I apologise for, I would
Fliss Lee (56:36)
Yeah. Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (56:39)
say the biggest barrier to not doing things your way or not feeling that that's possible is playing by somebody else's rules, I suppose, or
Fliss Lee (56:52)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (56:54)
feeling those tricky, sticky and emotions that express themselves in the way you make decisions about
you know, feeling those things about money that affect how you make decisions. So the biggest barrier is, comes down to lack of awareness and having what I describe as an unexamined relationship with money. Not giving money and the dynamic that you are in, whether you like it or not, you are in a relationship with money, it's a lifelong
Fliss Lee (57:22)
you
Holly Dannhauser (57:24)
relationship, one of the few lifelong relationships you will have. So a barrier to
having, being or doing exactly what you want is not examining your relationship with money and nurturing it as a process, as a journey and being aware of what's going on.
Fliss Lee (57:43)
That's really interesting, very interesting. Thank you. What's one thing that's really helped you to do your thing? You can't repeat yourself here. You can't have the same answer for both questions.
Holly Dannhauser (57:54)
No, I won't repeat myself for this one.
okay, so I think...
Can I have two things? Okay,
Fliss Lee (58:03)
Yes, yes, if you can't choose, yes.
Holly Dannhauser (58:07)
so two things that have really helped me to do my thing. The first is getting really clear on what that thing is that I really want and doing that
Fliss Lee (58:16)
Mmm. Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (58:20)
without guilt, putting aside some of the obligation or the shame or the feelings of...
Maybe that's not quite for me. You know, why do I get why would I get to have that if other people don't? So the way I do that is very consciously so I take time out regularly from business and from life I create space for myself to reconnect with identifying exactly what I do want and why and
Fliss Lee (58:49)
Mmm.
Holly Dannhauser (58:52)
So that would be the first thing
And the second thing is, and I talk about this a lot because I think it's quite important,
I think about times in my life where I've sought out change or have made a change in some way or another towards something that I want.
Fliss Lee (59:12)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (59:13)
And in every single one of those examples, I notice that the discomfort with the status quo or staying as I am.
has to be greater than the discomfort of taking a new step. So
Fliss Lee (59:29)
Hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (59:30)
the thought of staying with things as they are or having someone else tell me what to do or following someone else's path, that just becomes so uncomfortable that the fear of doing something different feels easier, you know?
Fliss Lee (59:45)
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (59:47)
So that's something that I would, I would...
maybe encourage people to think about is, and I say this a lot with my clients, I'm like, imagine yourself at a crossroads. You know, you are standing there at this crossroads point. Is it more, is it, is it more uncomfortable to stay as you are with all of the things that you don't necessarily like? You don't want to be doing all the things that like you feel really miffed about or that get under your skin or that really frustrate you. Are you going to stay there and accept that that is what it is?
Or are you going to take the step onto a different path? Take that fork in the road, knowing that it might feel scary. It might be a different level of discomfort, but it's yours and it's your conscious step. for me, every single change that I've made has come from saying, I would regret staying in this current status quo of discomfort and someone else telling me what to do. And...
I'm more comfortable even though it's scary, even though it feels out of my control sometimes. I'm going to take that step and go for it. And that's doing your own thing, isn't it?
Fliss Lee (1:00:58)
Yes it really is. I feel like that's the we're done we're done that's the last podcast episode ever. Yeah I totally agree I love that thank you so much for sharing.
enjoyed that chat and I've learnt loads. I'd love everybody to know where they can find you Holly and if they're interested in working with you how can they do that.
Holly Dannhauser (1:01:22)
Yes, you can find me at my website, which is moon-mountain.com. You can find me usually on LinkedIn. That's where I kind of hang out in terms of socials. I do have a newsletter which I send very sporadically because, you know, nobody
Fliss Lee (1:01:38)
Hehehehe
Holly Dannhauser (1:01:39)
wants to be bombarded. But that's where you can hear some of my latest sort of news and offerings if you'd like to sign up to that. And I have also got a quarterly...
So aligned with the seasons, because I
Fliss Lee (1:01:53)
Mm.
Holly Dannhauser (1:01:53)
believe fully in the benefit of stepping back from your day-to-day busy lives and busy roles. Once a quarter, I provide a space for people to just come and have some guided, facilitated time with me online. It's just 90 minutes and that is entirely free to people in my community if you would like to. And when I say my community, I just mean people that are connected with me. So it's
Fliss Lee (1:02:18)
nice
Holly Dannhauser (1:02:18)
not a membership, it's not a paid thing.
So if anyone feels like they would like to come and have 90 minutes once a quarter Aligned with the season. So that's really about how do you want to use your energy your resources this this
Fliss Lee (1:02:30)
Mm-hmm.
Holly Dannhauser (1:02:31)
for the next three months and All the details of that are on my website is free to join and there's a mixture of practical activities which are about your strategy and Your relationship with your money. So the two things together like I say, that's your path. So That's that's the kind of being in my world stuff
And then the Money Quest is how you can work with me on a deeper level to explore and really examine and untangle your relationship with money. You can do that as a self-paced option. So I've got some online resources or we can work on your strategy and your money mindset together in a guided version. So that's where you get tailored one-to-one personal space and time and support with me along your journey.
Fliss Lee (1:03:17)
Love that. Thank you. Thank you so much for today, Holly.
Holly Dannhauser (1:03:21)
No, thank you. I'm really, really pleased we've had this conversation and I love talking about money because let's tackle that taboo and make it more normal. So yeah, it's
Fliss Lee (1:03:30)
Yeah.
Holly Dannhauser (1:03:30)
been an absolute joy. Thank you for providing space and recognising the importance of it too.
Fliss Lee (1:03:34)
Thank you.
Holly Dannhauser (1:03:36)
Thank you very much.
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