“Whatever your big thing is, say it out loud” with Sophie Greenwood
Do your thing · Season 2, episode 5 · Hosted by Fliss Lee
How to turn big ideas into action, plan your capacity and make room for work that excites you
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I’ve known Sophie Greenwood for a few years now, and she’s one of those people who can take all the ideas flying around your head and help you work out what you actually want to do with them.
A couple of years ago, she ran a capacity planning workshop for my Blueprinters that was a bit of a lightbulb moment for me too. Coming from the creative agency world, I’d picked up some pretty bad habits around saying yes to work and simply working more hours to fit it all in.
So I knew a conversation with Sophie about planning, capacity and how we actually make our ideas happen would be an insightful one.
Sophie Greenwood is the founder of Three Beams Thinking and a strategy and planning mentor for small, creatively minded businesses.
In this episode, we talk about those bigger ideas we have for our businesses – the things we’d love to do one day but perhaps don’t say out loud because we’ve got no idea how we’d actually make them happen – and how planning can help you start bridging that gap.
We also get into capacity planning, why so many of us overestimate how much we can realistically fit into our working week, and why having a plan doesn’t mean you have to rigidly stick to it when things change.
And we talk about how Sophie has gone from chasing the next job, promotion or pay rise to being much more driven by curiosity and making room for work that excites her.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
How to take a big idea and start turning it into something that feels achievable
Why understanding your actual capacity can help you make more realistic decisions about your time and workload
How to use a plan to give your business direction without feeling like you have to rigidly stick to it
Listen to the episode
Find it on your chosen podcast player here.
About Sophie Greenwood
Sophie is the founder of Three Beams Thinking, and is a Leeds-based business planning and strategy mentor for small business owners, entrepreneurs and freelancers.
After working full-time as Head of Operations for six years, Sophie became self-employed in 2022. She now supports small business owners to structure big ideas into action plans, understand their capacity, and really prioritise what will push their business forward.
When she’s not surrounded by post-it notes, you’ll usually find her organising a networking event, or chasing after her two young children.
Connect with, and follow Sophie
Three Beams Thinking website
Follow Sophie on Instagram
Connect with her on LinkedIn
You might also like
“Free up energy to focus on what you’re really good at” with Chris Mitchell
If Sophie’s conversation got you thinking about how you spend your time and what you want from your business, you might also enjoy my conversation with business coach Chris Mitchell. We talk about planning around what you actually want, figuring out what you’re really good at and letting go of the things that drain your energy.
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Chapters
00:00:00 - Setting the Stage: Exploring Big Ideas and Sophie's Expertise
00:01:29 - From Corporate Operations to Creative Strategy: Sophie's Path to Her Unique Role
00:06:44 - Unlocking Potential: How Strategic Planning Makes Big Ideas Achievable
00:13:21 - Bridging the Gap: Turning Unspoken Big Dreams into Actionable Plans
00:16:57 - Redefining Success: Embracing Curiosity Over Traditional Career Progression
00:22:03 - Realistic Time Management: Understanding Capacity and Setting Boundaries for Success
00:30:20 - Beyond the Everyday: Using Creative Exercises to Define Your Business's Future
00:34:25 - The Evolution of a Brand: From Creative Incubator to Three Beams Thinking
00:42:57 - Adaptable Strategy: Embracing Flexibility and Overcoming Perfectionism in Business
00:50:11 - Wrapping Up: Key Takeaways and How to Connect with Sophie Greenwood
Transcript
Fliss Lee (00:00)
Hi Sophie, so good to have you here. Please can you introduce yourself so everybody knows who you are and what you do.
Sophie Greenwood (00:06)
Yeah, absolutely. So thank you so much for having me. My name is Sophie and I run a company called Three Beams Thinking.
And I am a strategy and planning business mentor. So kind of made up the job myself, which I'm sure will come
Fliss Lee (00:20)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (00:21)
on to later. But really what I do is I help small creatively minded businesses, which means not just creative, traditional creative businesses, but
people who just have lots of ideas. I help them bring all of those ideas as a sounding board into action plans with timelines and accountability attached to it. So yeah, that's me.
Fliss Lee (00:41)
Thank you. So I've known you a while and I'm really fascinated to hear, because you just said you made up your job, I'm really fascinated to hear how you got into doing it. Like what's your background and how did you get to where you are today?
Sophie Greenwood (00:58)
So.
I've always had a love of kind of business and how business works. I did to going right back, I did double business at A level, which was
Fliss Lee (01:09)
Wow.
Sophie Greenwood (01:09)
there were only like two of us who did it. I was just really into it. I also really liked art as well. So I did art too. And I'm from Hull originally and art wasn't really something that you, did. didn't, you were either going
Fliss Lee (01:21)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (01:21)
to become an art teacher or nothing really. So I went to Leeds University and studied business management, but
I very much felt like I didn't really fit in and I was starting to question what big business was about and ethics and that kind of thing. And
Fliss Lee (01:42)
you
Sophie Greenwood (01:43)
kind of through doing a few bits of volunteer work and I discovered kind of social enterprise and...
off the back of that went on and did further studies in, at the time it was culture, creativity and entrepreneurship, which sounded really wishy washy at the time. And I was like, what, what am I doing? But now actually like 20 years later, it really makes a lot of sense. Like,
Fliss Lee (02:06)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (02:07)
so yeah, it's kind of, that's kind of followed me through and then fast forward a bit. worked in social enterprises in Leeds, several different social enterprises and
Really, really loved it, just loved it, but liked, what I think I liked was working in for a small business. So everywhere I
Fliss Lee (02:26)
you
Sophie Greenwood (02:27)
worked was under 30 people, which sounds massive now. I work for myself, but you know,
Fliss Lee (02:33)
You
Sophie Greenwood (02:34)
at the time, it was just really nice to work in those environments where you had to be a little bit of everything to everyone. And I
Fliss Lee (02:43)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (02:44)
think that's where I got my first flavor of working for myself.
And then I was working for a company and was doing project management and then got promoted to head of operations, which I loved, but it was very much a, not a nine to five. was eight till seven. You know, it was a very intense job. I'm sure we've all had them.
Fliss Lee (03:09)
Yes. Yes.
Sophie Greenwood (03:11)
And I was managing a team of 15 people and.
big projects, big budgets, and it was really interesting. But when I had my son, I'd been, I just knew it was, had something I had to give and that was the job.
Fliss Lee (03:28)
Mm,
Sophie Greenwood (03:28)
So
Fliss Lee (03:28)
mm.
Sophie Greenwood (03:29)
I had been running a side hustle on the side as a printmaker for, well it was about nine years ago I set it up. So, but there was no time in the week given to it. It was just weekends, evenings when I could to kind of fulfill that creative urge. But yeah, when I had my son nearly five years ago, I just thought I'm going to take this creative urge and I'm going to run with it full time.
But then I kind of went full steam ahead with that. But then got to a point where I realized that people always said to me like, you get to do the artist thing. That's like the dream. And I was running
Fliss Lee (04:13)
You
Sophie Greenwood (04:14)
art workshops and I was running, I was selling products, but something was missing. Like a little piece of me was missing.
So I decided that I was going to actually try and do some of the strategy and the planning stuff that I've been doing in my job of Headers Ops with other small businesses. And I did five sessions to start with at a really reduced rate.
I just did five of my kind of planning and strategy sessions and something just clicked for me. So I just
Fliss Lee (04:47)
Wow.
Sophie Greenwood (04:48)
absolutely loved it. And from that point onwards, I knew that even though the artist side of things maybe looked like it was like the dream job, it just wasn't enough for me.
And
I just really love that kind of all that strategy and planning and, know, first you've done my workshops, like spreadsheets and all that. I kind of missed all
Fliss Lee (05:08)
Hey
Sophie Greenwood (05:08)
of that, even though that sounds mad to people. But yeah, that's, that's me. Bit
Fliss Lee (05:11)
Hehehehe
Sophie Greenwood (05:13)
of a long story, but that's how I ended up here.
Fliss Lee (05:15)
It's interesting though, isn't it? Because like, I know that I use both sides of my brain and only through being self-employed and figuring out what I enjoy, have I realized that. And that's why I realized there was a bit of a disconnect with what I was doing before as designer, because I just didn't get to use both sides of my brain, like the logical strategic side as well as the creative side. So it sounds like that you didn't necessarily realize that that was a huge part of what you love to do.
Sophie Greenwood (05:46)
Yeah, I feel like I'd kind of told myself that I was a bit burnt out from my old job and therefore
Fliss Lee (05:51)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (05:52)
I ran towards the creative stuff and just kind of left the
Fliss Lee (05:54)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (05:55)
other side of my brain behind thinking I won't need this. And actually it was only when I had the distance of, I'm not going to say a break on maternity leave because it is not a break, but the distance.
Fliss Lee (06:05)
Hehehehe
Sophie Greenwood (06:06)
It was only when I had the distance away from the job that I was in that it made me realize that I did really miss that side of things.
Fliss Lee (06:16)
Yeah, that's really interesting. So obviously you're self-employed now and you've got your own business but I'm really interested to hear what experiences from employment have kind of shaped how you work today.
Sophie Greenwood (06:33)
massively. I owe a huge amount to my old boss. She was the chief exec of the company. And when I first started, there were seven of us. And when I left, there were 30 of us. And I owe a huge amount to her just letting me, giving me the kind of reins on the operations really to working alongside the finance director, who was also a big influence for me. Kind of just being left to...
the problems that needed solving. if we're given a budget of, was about, depending on the year, about one to 1.5 million, if you're given that budget and you've got these people to deliver against it and these objectives. So the company was delivering corporate social responsibility for big corporate.
organizations and it was about getting volunteers to go into schools and it was just left to me to say to me working alongside the finance director to say how do get these people into these schools with these objectives against these clients to time to budget to capacity so the the learning that you take from that when you're in a small company and you've got a whole team of people relying on you to both
get their work, give them work that is satisfying, that's going to professionally develop
Fliss Lee (07:51)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (07:51)
them, and also to capacity and to budget and to, you know, high quality as well. You just learn a huge amount of that from that a very bit of a pressure cooker of an environment. So even though
Fliss Lee (08:07)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (08:08)
I left for all the reasons I've said, I wanted to do my own thing.
I worked there for nearly 12 years and it was an amazing experience in terms of skills development.
Fliss Lee (08:19)
Yeah, so it sounds like a lot of what you do now is is kind of very much taken from from that.
Sophie Greenwood (08:28)
Yeah, yeah definitely like a lot of the stuff I do is around...
getting people to plan out the futures of their business. And in my head, it's almost broken down as a project. Even though they're not projects as such, it's the future of someone's business. It's the same thinking. So it's what needs to happen when against timelines, streamlining processes, helping people to think through where they're going in the future and what that means for them right now is stuff that I had to do all of that in my old job.
And I did that job as head of ops for a project managed for six years and then I was head of ops for six years. it's kind of seeing it from different angles as well. The actual doing and then the managing of it just, you I think my boss always said to me, you spend so much time planning, Sophie, you know,
Fliss Lee (09:16)
Hehehehehe
Sophie Greenwood (09:18)
and now I get to do it for a living.
Fliss Lee (09:21)
What is it you love about planning? Because I love a good plan myself. But I'm really interested to kind of know what it is you love about planning.
Sophie Greenwood (09:31)
That's such a great question.
I think it's just being able to see how things go from step to step to step and breaking it down into smaller bits. And what I love about helping other people plan is suddenly this big thing that they didn't think they could maybe do, or they didn't know how to achieve it. All of a sudden they're like, a lot of people say to me, my goodness, my noise feels calm now. I'm just walking away with this calm plan. I just need to take down it and do it. So I just, that's what I love about planning. makes things feel achievable, like in a way that nothing else
Big ideas are brilliant and so, so important for business. But to actually break it down and say this is what you can do or should do at these different points to make it achievable is just like magic, I think. Watching people's penny
Fliss Lee (10:16)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (10:17)
drop that they can do that big thing that they want it to do.
Fliss Lee (10:21)
Yeah, kind of frees them up to be able to do it without all that overwhelmed, doesn't That's
Sophie Greenwood (10:26)
Mmm.
Fliss Lee (10:28)
really interesting. I also think that's that is your create the creative side of what you do in the problem solving. Because
Sophie Greenwood (10:35)
and
Fliss Lee (10:36)
that's what creatives do, don't they? We essentially solve a problem that is there in a creative way. And I feel like maybe how creative do you feel your
Your job is now out of interest.
Sophie Greenwood (10:53)
or
like
actually so much more creative than when I was doing the art stuff. So a lot of people, I stopped, I was teaching liner printing and screen printing and do my own prints and things. And a lot of people said to me, won't you miss being creative? had like three people say to me, what you miss being creative or something similar. And it really stopped me in my tracks because I hadn't thought of it like that. Because for me, teaching the same liner printing class over and over again is actually
Fliss Lee (11:22)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (11:23)
not as creative as sitting down.
I ask people to crawl into every corner of their brain and pull out all their ideas, all their concerns, their, what they're excited about, what they're worried about. I like to ask them to do that and actually being able to crack open that with them and just see what the thinking process is, is just like so much more creative than teaching somebody the same line of printing technique.
Fliss Lee (11:51)
That's really interesting and I guess that's how you actually get to the solution, isn't it? By exploring that.
Sophie Greenwood (12:00)
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
So all the sessions are based on divergent and convergent thinking, which is just a, it's a diagram I fell in love with, if you can fall in love with diagram, like 10 years ago.
Fliss Lee (12:09)
Hahaha
Sophie Greenwood (12:10)
I did some human centered design training and I just loved this diagram. It's a, it's a diamond on its side and start at the point of the diamond and then it goes out. So that bit is all about big ideas, big thinking. Nothing is too.
big at that point, nothing can be shut down. And then you draw a line down the middle and you swap into convergent thinking, which is then about bringing everything together into a plan. And for me, that like big thinking zone is, is just absolutely magic to see someone's brain light up and I get excited because then I think we can make this happen. Obviously it's up to the person to then go away and actually make that happen.
But to be able to help them plan and do that using that model of divergent and convergent thinking is just, yeah, I thought I'd get bored of it, but I'm four years in now and I'm only getting more excited. So, yeah.
Fliss Lee (13:03)
Is
it a case of your helping them to explore what could actually be possible?
Sophie Greenwood (13:11)
Yeah, definitely. And I think sometimes like the big ideas that you think are just in your mind, that you're not sure whether they can happen or not. I think that they can spark other ideas in a way that the smaller ideas are more restricted ideas, kind of don't spark the same big ideas. Plus there's no reason you can't just park them for later and come back to them. But they can feed the kind of longer term thing of what you're trying to do.
So I want to know if people want to write a book, they want to be on a big stage, they want to open their own cafe, whatever it is, whatever their big thing is that they've not said out loud. I just think it's really exciting to explore that. And people get really excited about their big dreams as well, even if they don't know how they're to make them happen.
Fliss Lee (13:53)
Do you think people don't feel like they can... What is it about big dreams that people aren't able to like aim towards? That they can't voice them or that they're not allowed or what do think it is?
Sophie Greenwood (14:07)
I
think it's maybe the gap that people need to bridge is how they actually make it happen. So
Fliss Lee (14:14)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (14:15)
if they want to write a book, for example, they're like, well, I don't know how to do that, so I'm just going to park that in my brain and I'm going to revisit it every now and again, but then I'm just going to get on with the work I've got because that feels easier.
Fliss Lee (14:26)
Mm.
Sophie Greenwood (14:27)
And I think
people don't know how to make the thing happen. they don't maybe even go on the first steps to exploring that. But often it's about the first thing with anything is about research and talking to the right people. And that then can trigger what the process is. No matter what the big dream is, you need to do the research into it. But people
Fliss Lee (14:45)
Yeah.
Sophie Greenwood (14:46)
get stuck on that and then they just get in the everyday rhythm of what they're doing and the work they've currently got on.
Fliss Lee (14:53)
Yeah, think it's across the board. I've seen people in big businesses do it. They can't think about the big ideas, so they just get stuck in doing the same thing that they've always done. Because
Sophie Greenwood (15:05)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (15:06)
it almost feels easier for your brain to cope with.
Sophie Greenwood (15:10)
Yeah, definitely. And nobody has any time. Like, there's never any time. When do you have the time to sit down and do the research or plan the big things? Like, you know, it's so easy to get in the hamster wheel of doing the next thing, the next thing, the next thing.
Fliss Lee (15:24)
Yeah, god, so, so, so easy, isn't it? I wanna speak about time in a minute, but I would actually love to, before we get on to chatting about time, I'd love to know actually if there's anything about work or success that's changed for you since being self-employed.
Sophie Greenwood (15:44)
that's a, yeah, huge, that's a great question. I think it's not just being self-employed. I think for context, I've got two children. So one's five and
Fliss Lee (15:52)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (15:52)
one's one, two boys. And I think that self-employment and motherhood for me go hand in hand because they happened at exactly the same time. So sometimes it's hard to extract what is self-employment and what is motherhood. So.
just for context for people listening I guess I think that's really important but I think before I was really racing towards the next job, the next promotion, the next pay rise if I'm honest like before kids and I think since then I'm now more driven by my own curiosity in terms of
Fliss Lee (16:29)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (16:31)
like what I take on so
at the moment it's probably more important to me that something excites me than that it's going to bring in the next, you know, big bit of money.
Fliss Lee (16:46)
I love that way of looking at it. I really love that.
Wow. Isn't it a shame that it's motherhood that kind of has done that, that idea of like, oh, is this going to excite me? I want to do that. I'm not going to do that
Sophie Greenwood (17:01)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (17:02)
because it doesn't excite me. I feel like if we all had that in us at all times, like imagine what we'd do.
Sophie Greenwood (17:08)
Yeah.
I wonder if it was motherhood or whether it's, as I said, the two are, you know, closely intertwined. I wonder whether
Fliss Lee (17:14)
Hmm. Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (17:17)
it is that or whether it's going self-employed. think that, like, don't get me wrong. You have to, I have to have the base of what I feel comfortable with financially. Like it's not that I'm turning down well-paid work to go and do, run a workshop for free to test it out. You know, we're not talking about that.
Fliss Lee (17:31)
You're not doing it for free.
Sophie Greenwood (17:33)
It's about,
maybe just making room by saying no to some things to make room to do something. So for example, I've been really excited by some of the possibilities around AI in small business. And I'm not
Fliss Lee (17:50)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (17:50)
talking like writing you posts for you and doing your images. That for me, like it's not something I use it for. But
Like for creative thinking and deepening your thinking and making you forcing yourself to ask yourself deeper questions So the other day I
Fliss Lee (18:06)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (18:06)
had a chat with AI pretending to be one of my target customers and just had a
Fliss Lee (18:10)
Yes.
Sophie Greenwood (18:11)
chat with it as if it was that and I just said please answer as if you're this person that I'd empathy mapped out and Decided on who they were
And that's like something I'd love to work with small businesses on and doing like a course on that, for example, or a workshop to test it out. You know, maybe people who've only ever seen it as it's for writing, it's for writing a post and it's a bit naff, it's for doing images and it's also a bit naff. it's, I want to explore what creative thinking and how it can deepen your thinking, not replace your creative thinking.
But I don't know what that looks like yet. That isn't something I've launched. But that's the kind of example of where I've got a seed of curiosity from some training that I've done around design thinking and AI. It was a course I did six months ago. And that's prompted that thought for me. I'm like, right, what can I do with that? So now I need to find time to build that and to just test it. And I think testing is so important. Just to test that idea with a small group.
Fliss Lee (19:09)
my god, yes.
Sophie Greenwood (19:10)
of guinea pigs that are going to test it and be really honest with me. So that's kind of what I mean, like I'm curious, I'm going to run down that path rather than taking on another bit of thinking, particularly like freelance work, rather than taking on another few bits of like freelance work, stuff that I've maybe done before that I can do. That stuff's there and it's steady, brilliant, but let's keep that steady and let's add some curiosity rather than boosting the other work that I'm doing over and over again, if that makes sense.
Fliss Lee (19:36)
Hmm,
yeah, it sounds like what you're saying is rather than doing the things you feel like you should be doing, like, I
Sophie Greenwood (19:43)
Hmm.
Fliss Lee (19:43)
should be chasing more money or, you know, I'm going, what do I find interesting and how can I do that instead?
Sophie Greenwood (19:51)
Yeah,
and I think like what's the, for me, the whole point of running a small, I'm going to call it creatively minded rather than creative, because that's got a lot of stigma attached. But the joy of running a small creatively minded business is being able to do what interests you as well as what brings the money in.
Fliss Lee (20:09)
Yes, 100 % and I love to try and make the money doing what interests me.
Sophie Greenwood (20:16)
Yeah, yeah, and that is brilliant. Like if you can, hopefully that's the ideal scenario. And yeah, as I said, it's not about replacing bringing the money in. It's just making sure for me, it's not getting caught in the trap of just trying to bring the money in and therefore not bringing that excitement in for me.
Fliss Lee (20:39)
That's really interesting. That's really interesting. So, let's talk about time. So, I have done one of Sophie's capacity planning workshops and if you haven't done one before, I'd thoroughly recommend them Being a creative, we have to plan projects. It's what we do.
I've seen it through many small businesses I've worked with are not great with planning their time or knowing how much time they actually have and I've seen it time and time again where so many small businesses heap too much stuff on their plate and get overwhelmed by what they're trying to do and go I can't do it all and then that just leads to overwhelm.
disappointment and all these things. So
Sophie Greenwood (21:26)
Mmm.
Fliss Lee (21:27)
when I did your capacity for learning workshop, was like a complete light bulb moment because I, I'll just explain what I did. I wanted to work like a 30 to 35 hour week. I plotted out what I was expecting of myself and I like, there's no wonder I'm burning out here because I'm doing too much. And it was like just
Sophie Greenwood (21:47)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (21:47)
visually seeing it that I found really interesting. So.
Why do you think so many people over schedule and how can we understand what we want to work on and schedule our time more effectively? I mean they're very big questions that I've just asked you to answer, sorry.
Sophie Greenwood (22:02)
Huge questions.
think what I would say is that like it's super, the over scheduling thing is super common. I worked with someone recently who was 63 % over capacity for the next three months. And that was like a penny drop moment for that person. And I think that it's really important for people to be able to see it. There's two parts of it. So being able to see it visually plotted out.
is
Fliss Lee (22:30)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (22:31)
super important. So as you said, like, so I use a spreadsheet to do it. It's pretty, I promise for anyone who hates spreadsheets. But yeah, it's about being able to see it and then being able to make decisions based on it. They're two different things. So we can see it and then not listen to it. The
Fliss Lee (22:51)
Yes.
Sophie Greenwood (22:51)
kind of the magic in it is seeing it and doing something about it. But I think a lot of people over schedule because they're not actually planning.
it in.
I think people just, don't think that many creatives from, I've done a lot of time management workshops and I've asked the question, how many people time block? And a lot of people don't time block. And I think that is just a really simple thing that people could do without even
Fliss Lee (23:17)
Mm.
Sophie Greenwood (23:18)
needing to have a spreadsheet with it all in just a really simple color coded mind's yellow. So it kind of blends into the background, but like a thing where you block it out in the diary to say, this is what I'm doing when.
because a lot of people just do meetings. So they'll just do meetings and then they'll be like, oh, well, that'll only take an hour. It probably won't. It might take three. But I think as well, like I always bang on about time tracking. And I get a lot of eye rolls when I bang on about time tracking because people
Fliss Lee (23:45)
Yes.
Sophie Greenwood (23:46)
either don't like it or they've come from an agency background and they just don't like the approach. Yeah, that's, okay, yeah, yeah. So people
Fliss Lee (23:55)
May yet.
Sophie Greenwood (23:56)
do that. And I think that if...
There's so many, there's kind of key components, like not planning it in the first place, but if you do plan it, making sure you're understanding what the different pieces are and how long they take. And then if you don't understand how long things take, just like try time tracking for like a month. Even if you never do it again, just a month of it will give you enough information.
for the short term to see how long you're spending. So you'd be shocked at how much time you spend on social media, or maybe you won't, but you'd be shocked at how much time it takes just to tidy up your inbox or work on a client piece. And I think particularly with creative work, think that
Fliss Lee (24:35)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (24:36)
like if you're a designer, for example, like when is the work done? Like you could tweak it forever, right?
When is it finished? It's not. And lot of creatives are
Fliss Lee (24:47)
That's such a good point.
Sophie Greenwood (24:48)
perfectionists. And then the perfectionists are then, it's really hard to then decide how long that thing is gonna take, which is then if everything takes a little bit longer than you thought it would, and you've perhaps not planned it, I think that's where the explosion happens, the burnout.
Fliss Lee (25:08)
So how can we understand how much we want to work and then plan our time effectively in accordance to that?
Sophie Greenwood (25:16)
I think it's back to understanding how long things take that you're doing.
Fliss Lee (25:20)
It takes.
Sophie Greenwood (25:21)
I think it is back to that. It's about understanding. It's about analysing what you're already doing so that when you say, I only want to work three days a week, that you understand then what can go in those three days a week.
Fliss Lee (25:36)
So is it about prioritising
Sophie Greenwood (25:37)
So I think.
Fliss Lee (25:38)
what you actually want to be doing in that time?
Sophie Greenwood (25:40)
Yeah
and I think as well like I can sit here and say all of this but I also you know if I'm especially if I'm enjoying something I'm working on you will sometimes find me working on an evening but I know what I'm doing I'm like you know I mean like I take on the work
Fliss Lee (25:56)
Hahaha!
Sophie Greenwood (25:57)
and I'm like I know this is going to take me
I'm going to have to work on this like for several evenings. And I think that's the thing as well about running your own business. Like sometimes you do have to work extra. You do have to work over. It's not this kind of, I don't know, dreamy time where you're just like, everything fits perfectly into the three days a week that you want it to. I think sometimes it does spill over, but I think it's understanding before that happens, if things are going to spill over. So I run.
and a project which is something I started running when I had my old printmaking business but I run an online makers fair for 250 makers are involved in it and they also sell seconds and end of line stock and that's in a month and I know that this month I'm going to be working two evenings a week this month because
Fliss Lee (26:48)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (26:49)
the zoom calls are on an evening so I'll probably do one zoom call on an evening to help the makers prepare for that.
and then I'll probably do an evening just of admin. And I already know that's the case, but then it's about knowing in a month's time, what am I going to do to pull that back so that I can sit on the sofa and watch traitors instead?
Fliss Lee (27:08)
So it's not about not doing that work, it? Out of hours, it's about planning it in, but then planning the opposite of that as well, which I think we always forget to do. we don't plan it in, we work weekends or evenings and then that keeps happening and keeps happening and then it spirals
Sophie Greenwood (27:27)
I think it's the keeps happening that's the issue.
Fliss Lee (27:29)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (27:30)
I think I wouldn't, me personally, it's not an issue if I occasionally have to work on an evening. I quite like that. I love what I do. So sometimes I have to do that or I'll go and do a, you know, the boys will stay with my husband and I'll go and do a couple of hours in a coffee shop on a weekend.
Fliss Lee (27:45)
Mm.
Sophie Greenwood (27:45)
Now, actually, I quite enjoy that. That's quite nice. Doing a bit of admin catch up. So I think it's, it's the keeps happening that's the issue and that's where the burnout happens, I think.
And that's, yeah, so it's okay for it to happen, I think, in my world anyway. But then it's like, what's the downtime? So after Super Seconds Festival, in a month, I've then planned off two days the following week, and just off for me to do whatever I want. I might go to the cinema.
Fliss Lee (28:11)
Yeah, nice, I like that. someone recently told me that they have a buffer day in every fortnight, which is their time
Sophie Greenwood (28:19)
That's
Fliss Lee (28:19)
to just do everything, which I really like that idea because that's that buffer day to have that downtime. So I think that's a lovely approach.
Sophie Greenwood (28:27)
Yeah,
exactly. You just have to stick to it then and not let somebody do it. So I said, like on a Monday, I've now scheduled in that I don't work on a Monday afternoon.
Fliss Lee (28:36)
Mm-hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (28:37)
I've put my little boy in nursery and I'm just like, no, I just don't work on a Monday afternoon. And I had to work on Monday afternoon on a project that I work on. And I was like quite annoyed at myself that I had to work. So it's about then having
Fliss Lee (28:48)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (28:48)
those boundaries in place for yourself.
Now
I'm like, afternoons I do not work. I'm not allowed to work. Otherwise it creeps in.
Fliss Lee (28:56)
So actually capacity planning is massively about boundaries, isn't
Sophie Greenwood (29:00)
Mmm, huge thing, yeah.
Fliss Lee (29:04)
it? So what do you see are the biggest hurdles that kind of get in the way of people other than capacity? Like getting in the way of people getting things done other than capacity.
Sophie Greenwood (29:17)
great
question. think that people maybe not understanding like where they're going in the future
Fliss Lee (29:26)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (29:27)
has a big impact so if you don't understand you know it's a bit cheesy that where do want to be in three years time but if you don't understand where you want to be in three years time you might make decisions to take things on which mean
you're saying yes to somebody else which means you're saying no to yourself and what you want to achieve.
Fliss Lee (29:50)
I always, I always get people to think about why they started the business and what they want from it. Not necessarily
Sophie Greenwood (29:56)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (29:57)
in five years time, I want to be running this with five, you know, not, not to that granular detail, but I'm all, I'm
Sophie Greenwood (30:04)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (30:04)
probably really annoying my clients constantly going, can we just come back to you? Why? Because I feel like that really helps people to kind of have, it's that vision, isn't it? I've got where are we going and what are we doing? How can we make decisions based on this?
Sophie Greenwood (30:19)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the exercises that I get people to do before they come for a session is to write a newspaper article about themselves in the future. And it brings
up a lot. So because I'm trying to get people to think differently about strategy, because I think strategy is often like mentioned as something that big businesses do.
or something that's done by big teams that's a 10 page document and I literally just see it as your guiding light if you've got it's the light at the end of the tunnel in three years time which path are you going to take to get there and I think that to do that rather than saying where do you see yourself in three years time it's a lot better I think to get people thinking creatively and people really struggle with it people really struggle with write a newspaper article about yourself in three years time
Fliss Lee (31:09)
Really?
Sophie Greenwood (31:10)
Yeah, and I also do,
Fliss Lee (31:10)
Why do you think that is?
Sophie Greenwood (31:13)
because people don't know where they're headed. It's back to the point right at the beginning, people don't know where they want to be. Not everyone, I mean, some people know where they want to be and they still struggle just because it's out of the norm. And some people love it, some people absolutely fly with that task and they absolutely love it. So, yeah, I
Fliss Lee (31:32)
Mm. Mm.
Sophie Greenwood (31:33)
also get people to do A Day in the Life as well.
So people have to,
Fliss Lee (31:37)
me and I.
Sophie Greenwood (31:38)
in three years time, what does your day look like? And a lot of people say, calm, you know, get up in the morning, I don't look at my phone, I read before I go to bed, I don't look at my phone. And that's the kind of opposite of what's happening now for a lot of people. And I think that that's quite eye opening for people as well. So there's two little things you wanna do that people can do if they want to.
think
about it in the future. someone says, where do you want to be? And you think, hate that question, just flip it slightly and think about it more creatively.
Fliss Lee (32:11)
I did that exercise, what I want my day to be like. I got one of the Project U journals at beginning of this year and it brought up something I've not thought about which was I want to spend more time writing.
Sophie Greenwood (32:27)
Mmm.
Fliss Lee (32:27)
Which I just hadn't, I really enjoy writing, I used to write blogs and things, so used to. And actually I started getting back into blog writing again because it brought that up and I'd
I hadn't even thought, oh, I want to get back into writing, but because I was doing that kind of dreaming of what's my day look like? It's like this floaty day when I was, bit of writing, bit of coffee, you know, quite unrealistic, but it's
Sophie Greenwood (32:50)
Yeah, yeah.
Fliss Lee (32:53)
not something that actually I found really creative and really enjoy again. So like I can totally see why that would be amazing, exercise.
Sophie Greenwood (33:01)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (33:02)
That was really interesting. So,
Tell me about your brand. You've obviously got two businesses. You've recently rebranded, haven't you?
Sophie Greenwood (33:12)
Yes,
I have, yeah.
Fliss Lee (33:14)
what made you think that I need to rebrand?
Sophie Greenwood (33:17)
I think it was going back to what I've just talked about, like where do I want to be in the future? And I started thinking about
Fliss Lee (33:22)
Hmm
Sophie Greenwood (33:23)
would I like to, maybe I would like to write a book, maybe I want to do big in-person events, maybe I want to do group programs. And these were all things that I was thinking. Quite likely I'd be these things. Whilst also still doing the one-to-one stuff, because that's the stuff that I enjoy the most. But it got me looking into the name that I had, which was the Creative Incubator, and
someone else already had the creative pre-incubator trademarked in Europe. So I spoke to a trademark lawyer and they said you can't use the creative incubator, you can't trademark that because they were also within the same field. But before that, I mean you and I did a power hour like what was that two years ago?
Fliss Lee (34:07)
I think so, yeah. Maybe three.
Sophie Greenwood (34:09)
And I was talking to you about how I get across what I do, because I was really struggling. As I said at the beginning, I made up what I do. I haven't seen anybody, since seen some people doing similar stuff, I haven't seen anybody doing it. So I was really struggling with how to articulate it. So
Fliss Lee (34:26)
Mm.
Sophie Greenwood (34:27)
I think from that point, having that and reflecting on that and then having the trademark conversation.
And actually what triggered the trademark conversation was I spoke to Amy from Kinnivaloo Creative, who did my brand, did a wonderful job. I said to her, I'm thinking of changing the name, but maybe I won't. Maybe I'll just keep this one and I'll change it in a few years time. And she just said, do you think that's the best decision? Like the brand and the name are so intertwined. Like it's really hard
Fliss Lee (34:59)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (35:00)
to do a brand and then just be like, oh, I'll just rename it like in the future.
Fliss Lee (35:04)
Yes.
Sophie Greenwood (35:03)
So it was that point.
Yeah, it was that point and bless Amy, she was so accommodating. It was that point where I was like, right, I know I'm, what would I have been like six months pregnant? I was six months pregnant, we're just about to get this brand done. But you know what? I need to do the, I need to change the name and I need to think about what
Fliss Lee (35:21)
You
Sophie Greenwood (35:21)
that name is going to be. So yeah, it was a whole process. And then I got a copywriter, Kate Rye, to help me with it. Naming is not my strong point. Talk to me about time management
Fliss Lee (35:32)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (35:32)
business planning. Naming things shockingly.
bad
at it. So I got Kate to help
Fliss Lee (35:37)
It's, yeah.
Sophie Greenwood (35:38)
me and yeah so it kind of all went from there really and then needed the website doing so got a little company called Little Green Jesus to do that who were amazing so it it was the conversation of how do I articulate myself and what I do and then having the penny drop moment that I couldn't use my name in any trademark sense which made me feel vulnerable and then I changed it off
Fliss Lee (36:02)
Yeah,
Sophie Greenwood (36:04)
the back of that.
Fliss Lee (36:05)
thinking about the future, isn't it? It opens up more possibilities if you can trademark it.
Sophie Greenwood (36:11)
Yeah, it does. it just felt like, I mean, can you imagine like writing a book and then having someone come along and be like,
you can't use that name, which would be so intertwined with the concept.
Fliss Lee (36:21)
Yeah.
Sophie Greenwood (36:21)
And I, yeah. And also like, I was calling it the creative incubator and we talked about the word creative earlier and how it's got a lot of kind of stigma attached to it and what it means to be a creative.
I've worked with loads of different businesses. I've worked with a private chef, a dog trainer, a personal trainer, and then lots of illustrators and graphic designers and more traditional fields, creative traditional fields. But that also needed to change as well, I think, so that people didn't see the word creative and think that's not me.
Fliss Lee (36:55)
Yeah, yeah. Okay. You like naming it based on who you want to attract and everything.
Sophie Greenwood (37:03)
you
Fliss Lee (37:04)
So how have you made sure your brand reflects how you work and what you do? Really interested in hearing about this thinking behind it.
Sophie Greenwood (37:16)
Okay,
so I told you I was stuck on the name. So I was really stuck on the name and I got Kate's help and she got me thinking about metaphors and we came on the metaphor of like light and lighting people's path and it's a little bit cheesy but like that kind of idea and
I've always liked the, when we were looking at like the words around the word light and we were looking at beam, I've always liked the word beam. I don't know why it's just, I'd like the sound of it. And I Googled like what are the, what are the different types of beams? And it came up as like divergent, convergent and parallel. And I was like, Oh my God, that's how I work. That is like literally what I've based my whole like sessions and business on. And it just felt like it was like too good to be true.
there were three different types of beams. So then Kate and I talked about it being called three beams, but I wanted to add the thinking to like describe what it is that I do and I ask other people to do is a lot of thinking. So yeah, that's kind of where it came from. I had this penny drop moment where I was like already looking at that as a metaphor. And then when I Googled it and realized that it fit with the model I've been using all along, I was just thinking that this is the one for me. And then I've just
Fliss Lee (38:33)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (38:33)
kind of...
just dived in really. I think renaming can feel really kind of vulnerable and open. But yeah, it's been really exciting. I'm pleased I've done it.
Fliss Lee (38:46)
It's doing that brand light really opened up kind of messaging and all sorts of visuals and things that you just didn't have before.
Sophie Greenwood (38:55)
Yeah loads of, yeah absolutely and I think even like thinking so like I'm gonna do a series on Instagram which is gonna be like three good things about branding, three good things about copywriting whatever and get guests on and ask them to kind of share tips and that's not something I would have done before and yeah it's opened up a lot of kind of just ideas and it's only been like less than a month.
Fliss Lee (39:24)
It's really interesting isn't it how once you start thinking around a concept and how to articulate that not just visually but verbally like the possibilities it opens up is mad.
Sophie Greenwood (39:38)
Yeah,
yeah.
And it's just really exciting and exciting to work with other people as well who are experts at what they do. Because, you know, my old brand was just really DIY. I could just put it together on Canva. it's not my strength at all. So it was really good to be able to bring people in, lots of different people in, know, websites, branding, naming, brand strategy, just bringing people in so that I can get their expertise was just eye opening for me.
Fliss Lee (40:05)
that helped you look at your business differently since the rebrand and how it feels like you not doing it as a DIY has helped you look at things
Sophie Greenwood (40:17)
Yeah,
Fliss Lee (40:17)
differently.
Sophie Greenwood (40:19)
yeah, think, yeah, massively differently. I think that it's about, it's just given me more confidence. Because I don't
Fliss Lee (40:27)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (40:28)
know, it's like presenting someone else's work, but it's so connected with what I do. You know, I also had like the photos done by somebody called Fran Hennessey Creative and Fran.
like taking those pictures and then sending them to me being able to use them and I've had photo shoots before with other photographers like it just doesn't feel like you're presenting you it feels like you're I don't know it just feels different it feels like gives you more confidence I think
Fliss Lee (40:56)
Yeah, it's amazing. like having that kind of well thought out concept makes you feel legit in your mind, isn't it? Even though you just exactly
Sophie Greenwood (41:07)
Yes.
Fliss Lee (41:08)
the same as you were before.
Sophie Greenwood (41:10)
Yeah, yeah it does, yeah. Yeah, It definitely, yeah,
Fliss Lee (41:13)
Mm.
Sophie Greenwood (41:13)
just confidence. Yeah, I think it just makes a world of difference, like having someone else doing that work for you, especially when you know that it's not your area of strength.
Fliss Lee (41:24)
Yeah, yeah. But for me, it sounds like the whole rebrand has come from you doing what you do for other people with yourself, like thinking about the future. So as part of that, were you going, there's things that I want to lose now and get rid of because they don't work for the future.
Sophie Greenwood (41:45)
Yeah,
great question.
I think that in the future I definitely want to be, there's things I want to make room for in terms of what I'm bringing to the business and I suppose I need to, I need to really think about how I make that room.
Fliss Lee (42:02)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (42:02)
And it's, you at the moment I'm working three days a week around my kids and having my Monday afternoons just for me. So it's, there are things that will need to change and then it's doing, just making those decisions. So I'm in the process of that at the moment.
Fliss Lee (42:20)
that's interesting. Maybe I'll get you back on in the years time and we can talk about that then. Yeah,
Sophie Greenwood (42:26)
Yeah, definitely, yeah.
Fliss Lee (42:28)
because I think it's an ever evolving thing, isn't it as well? Like, obviously you've rebranded, but you're doing your business is an ever evolving thing. Like how, how, how often do you go back to your kind of business planning and strategy and like the really big thinking? How often do you revisit that for yourself?
Sophie Greenwood (42:47)
I
suppose probably every six months.
Fliss Lee (42:51)
wow that often.
Sophie Greenwood (42:54)
Not to revisit it entirely,
Fliss Lee (42:55)
Mm.
Sophie Greenwood (42:56)
but to check back in on it and check that it is like heading where I want it to head. I think I've just, you know, I've just had a second child. So it's, that's been a big decision point, a big turning point. So I did a big, I did like a big brain dump while I was kind of coming back from maternity leave. Kind
Fliss Lee (43:17)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (43:18)
of came back and I was like, right, I need to just look at this all.
So in terms of a big brain dump, probably every 18 months, probably, but then checking back in with what I said and the timeline that I set for myself, because things change. Like I always say this to everybody and I say it to myself as well. Like things change, you can plan something out and then in six months time, it doesn't look the same for you.
And it doesn't
Fliss Lee (43:45)
Yeah.
Sophie Greenwood (43:46)
mean the plan wasn't valid. It just means that things change and you work by yourself. So you have the ability to kind of make quick decisions. New ideas come up, new opportunities, things get dropped, that kind of thing. So yeah, I think it's important to revisit it, but also not get too like tied down by it and too bogged down by it.
Fliss Lee (44:08)
Because I do find that people often don't necessarily want to put a big plan in place because they're like, well, what if I change my mind? What would you say to people who kind of feel that way in order to help them kind of get some kind of momentum going in their business?
Sophie Greenwood (44:24)
I
don't think it matters. If you put a plan down, it's not like you're submitting it. Well, you might be submitting it to an investor and then that's a different thing. But I was going to say, like,
Fliss Lee (44:31)
Hehehe
Sophie Greenwood (44:32)
it's not like you're submitting it to an investor or a boss or whatever, because it's just you. A lot of people, for a lot of people, it's just them. And I think it's about setting intentions, working towards them, but then being open to opportunities and kind of holding that plan, you know, kind of lightly, like holding it loosely.
rather than not taking anything on that comes up that's exciting because you've got this plan and you have to stick to it. So I think it's about planning with intention to get momentum, but then also being flexible enough to flex that if you need to and not beating yourself up for that. Like just accepting that that's what happens and plans change and opportunities come up and that's okay. But if you don't set the plan in the first place, then
you're just making the same day-to-day decisions that aren't getting you any further ahead of what you want to achieve if you've not tried to articulate what you want to achieve.
Fliss Lee (45:32)
You're just staying in the place that you're at that maybe you don't want to be in rather than trying to move in some direction. Directions do that as well, don't they? I know this is a podcast,
Sophie Greenwood (45:43)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (45:43)
I'm wiggling my hand. Yeah,
Sophie Greenwood (45:45)
you
Fliss Lee (45:47)
that's really interesting. Sophie, I could talk to you for hours and hours, but I don't know if a four hour long podcast would be a great episode. So I'm gonna start wrapping up.
Sophie Greenwood (45:55)
you
Fliss Lee (46:00)
I think there's something, when you said about the curiosity thing I found that really interesting you know I really want to explore how I can get that into just all of my decision making that's one thing for me this year is around I want to explore things so when you said that that really stood out to me because I was like I don't just want to kind of
keep going down the line. I want to try new things and go, this is fun. Let's try this. So I think for me, it's about planning in some time to have a bit of a curiosity exploration. so I'm going to go away and think about that, I think,
Sophie Greenwood (46:37)
Good.
Fliss Lee (46:40)
So you obviously work with a lot of people who are wanting to kind of put a plan in place but in your experience, what's the biggest barrier to somebody being able to do things their way?
Sophie Greenwood (46:51)
I think that a lot of people, it's back to what I said about the strategy thing, they don't necessarily know where they're going, but a lot of people kind of get in their own way with like perfectionism as well.
Fliss Lee (47:01)
Mmm.
Sophie Greenwood (47:02)
So not...
not launching something until it's perfect or thinking that they can't try something out and I think that one of the biggest things I would say is just test things out, try it, experiment with things, it doesn't have to be perfect. So yeah I think people kind of getting in their own way with perfectionism is a big thing and
Fliss Lee (47:23)
Hmm.
Sophie Greenwood (47:24)
I'm not saying I'm immune to that, I also want things to be perfect before they launch and it's trying to not get too hung up on that.
Fliss Lee (47:33)
Yeah, I think that's actually a really good one. Yeah, because we can think about all the things we would have done if we hadn't waited for it to be a perfect time or whatever.
Sophie Greenwood (47:44)
Yeah.
Fliss Lee (47:45)
Okay, so what's one thing that's really helped you to do your thing?
Sophie Greenwood (47:51)
I
think that practically as a mum of two, having childcare and wraparound childcare for my kids has made
Fliss Lee (47:56)
Yes.
Sophie Greenwood (47:58)
a huge difference. Yes, that's made a massive difference. think, but like mindset wise, I think that I always try and think like if something doesn't exist, just try and just create it. Like rather than thinking of why doesn't this thing exist? Like just.
just make it. So I used to, I haven't done one for a while, but I used to organise kind of creative coffee mornings in Leeds because I didn't see that being offered. It kind of is being offered now more and more like, but this was probably three years ago. I just thought, well, there isn't a networking event for the style that I want, which was just let's all have a coffee and a chat and let's not do high pressure introductions and that kind of thing. So I just got a group of people together in a beautiful space in Leeds and just made it happen. And I think that
that's probably something that's really helped is just having that mindset of if it doesn't exist then build it.
Fliss Lee (48:53)
Yeah, I think that's wonderful advice to finish on. Thank you so much, Sophie, for chatting to us today. If people are thinking, I really want to follow Sophie and I don't, how can they find you?
Sophie Greenwood (49:05)
Well, that would be really lovely and thank you for having me. It's been really nice to chat. They can find me at threebeamsthinking.co.uk and then I'm also threebeamsthinking on Instagram and I'm Sophie Greenwood on LinkedIn if that's your platform of choice as well. You can find me on there. But yeah, please do send me a message. I'd love to chat and yeah, I love just connecting with other creative businesses.
Fliss Lee (49:25)
will put those links in the show notes. Thank you very much Sophie, it's been wonderful to have you on.
Sophie Greenwood (49:31)
Thank you so much. Thanks, Fliss
Fliss Lee (49:33)
Thanks.
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